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Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast
Welcome to Towards Eden Enneagram, a show where we dissect our Enneagram types so we can understand ourselves and have way better relationships.
The Enneagram is a tool that illuminates our motivations, our blind spots, and the differences between myself and others.
We can use it to see ourselves more clearly and to get healthier.
The Enneagram isn’t about what we do. It’s about WHY we do what we do.
Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast
#30 - Enneagram 101: What is an Enneagram 3? with Pastor Becky Crain
Listen in for a great conversation with Pastor Becky Crain all about Enneagram Threes.
Type 3 is known as “The Performer” or “The Achiever.” Threes are ambitious, self-assured, and adaptable. They're motivated by a desire to prove their worth through many accomplishments and achievements.
Becky tells a hilarious story about how she decided to, and then did, win over the dentist. The story speaks to the 3 core desire to look attractive and competent in any situation. Becky also tells us about her journey learning to accept vulnerability as a key part of human relationships.
Pastor Becky Crain is a pastor and worship leader at State Street Community Church in Laporte, IN. She participates in theater productions and is currently earning her Master's degree in Clinical Mental Health Counseling.
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The Enneagram is a tool that illuminates our motivations, our blind spots and the differences between ourselves and others. In this series, we explore the question what is the Enneagram? If you haven't listened to the first episode in this series, called what is the Enneagram, go back and listen to that one first. Here's the most important thing I want you to remember the Enneagram is not about what we do. It's about why we do what we do. Today's episode is what is an Enneagram, type three? Here's what Ian Cron and Suzanne Stabile have to say about threes Success-oriented, image-conscious and wired for productivity. They are motivated by a need to be, or appear to be, successful and avoid failure. Threes are in the heart triad and they're driven by feelings. They are attuned to other people's feelings towards them, but they have trouble recognizing their own feelings. As a heart triad, type threes take in and relate to life from their heart, and they're more image conscious than the other numbers.
Speaker 1:And now it's time to learn all about three's from my conversation with Pastor Becky Crane. My type three guest is Becky Crane. Becky is a pastor at the church that I attend in LaPorte, indiana, and a really fun thing about our relationship is that we actually got to teach an Enneagram class together at church. So last year Becky invited me to teach an intro to the Enneagram class and it was like eight weeks long and it was really awesome. We learned a lot, it was super conversational and, yeah, I just want to say again how thankful I am for that because, honestly, like that experience kind of re-sparked my love and passion for teaching the Enneagram. Yes, very fun. Yeah, so that was awesome. Becky, where in the world are you? I kind of spoiled that one. That's all right, and what?
Speaker 2:do you do in life? And actually the where in the world am I is a complicated question because I'm in a lot of places. As you said, I'm a pastor in La Porte, indiana. I actually live in Chesterton, indiana, which is a city just next to it, and I go to school in Hammond, indiana. So I spend a lot of time kind of in a lot of cities across the northwest Indiana and tell us a little bit about what you do.
Speaker 2:So I'm associate pastor at State Street Community Church here in LaPorte County I. What that means is we're a smaller church so I wear a lot of hats, which is often the case in smaller churches. Most people recognize me as the worship leader. That's probably the role that people see me in the most, and so I am the worship leader there. But I also preach once every probably six weeks, four, six weeks. So I share that with our lead pastor, and then I also oversee our discipleship programs like teaching classes and then also first impressions, things like that. So we only have two full-time staff members on staff. So both Nate and I do our lead pastor. We just kind of wear a lot of hats, which is great. It's a great community.
Speaker 1:And you are pursuing continuing education right I am.
Speaker 2:I'm currently getting a master's in mental health with the intent to be a licensed therapist, and I'm about halfway through my program at Purdue Awesome.
Speaker 1:So we're here to talk about Enneagram 3s Yay, the best one. I love it. I know you have a lot of enthusiasm for the Enneagram. I do. I've just been so excited. I've wanted to have you in an interview for a long time, so this is going to be awesome. Yes, so I'm going to kind of outline the basics of Enneagram 3 and then we're going to have you tell your story about how you discovered the Enneagram and how you landed on type 3.
Speaker 1:So Enneagram type 3, we call the achiever, and type 3s. They have a core fear of being worthless or failing to be or appear successful and their desire is to feel valuable and worthy. And with that worthiness also comes the desire to appear successful and admired. So you could hear, success is a big theme, success and failure. For threes and threes sit in the heart triad. So we have three numbers on the Enneagram who are in the heart triad. Three are in the head triad and three are in the gut triad. So with being in a heart triad, the twos, threes and fours lead with their feeling intelligence and we'll talk more about this later. But Enneagram threes you know they're in the heart triad, so they have feelings are a big part of who they are, but they also have this ability to kind of compartmentalize their feelings for the sake of efficiency, and that tracks Well, definitely be chatting more about that. So, Becky, tell us, how did you discover the Enneagram and your type?
Speaker 2:So it took me a couple of tries to actually really get into the Enneagram. The first time I had heard about it was in an interview, a podcast interview, and someone was talking I think it was Jen Hatmaker was having was talking about the Enneagram and interview interviewing someone who had written a book about it, and so it seemed interesting. So I ordered the book to read it, because I am a learner and I like to find out new things, and it seemed interesting. So I read the book and at that time I really thought I was a seven. Ok, I initially thought I might be a seven, but I wasn't positive. I had narrowed it down to a three or a seven, but I was leaning towards seven and I would say I can't stress this enough the materials that you follow are very important, totally, like on Instagram and even just when you're trying to learn about something. Because I don't think the book that I chose was the best resource and I'm not going to say what it was- because I don't want to diss on anyone.
Speaker 2:But, and it was maybe great for somebody else, but for me it was kind of confusing and it wasn't clear. And so I came away from that experience thinking, well, it's kind of interesting, I'm not real sure. And then I lost interest. And then, a couple of years later, I was in the process of wanting to teach a class at the church where I pastor and I knew I wanted to do this, but I didn't know what I wanted it to be on. I'm like, what is the class that I want to teach? And I was out walking one day and just kind of contemplating what would be interesting to people, you know, what would be beneficial to people. And Enneagram came in my mind. And I'm like, yes, of course the Enneagram. And so it renewed my interest and I thought, well, if I'm going to teach a class on this, then I better start learning about it. And so that process, it's interesting when you know, as a teacher, you think I'm supposed to be an expert.
Speaker 2:And I made it clear from the beginning that I was not an expert. I was just leading this journey where we were all on together as we went through this journey of the Enneagram, and through that I went to some better resources. I'd say we use the book the Road Back to you, which I know you like Great book, you know so just so clear and it makes it's just very easy for beginners to understand it. Use the Enneagram Institute website and a lot of their knowledge, a lot of their information, and took the test, which the test is just one metric and I always tell people that because I scored high in several of the tests, several of the numbers I scored high in, three, seven and eight actually, ok yeah, and so at least it narrowed it down and then I was able to it's the inner work, right. You kind of got to do the work and the self-discovery and figure out what, where you really are. And for me it came down to those core motivations and core fears and I was able to identify three more in my weaknesses.
Speaker 2:I would say than in my strengths, because I was able to recognize I do, I, I do these things that are sometimes harmful. I do have these habits that I lean into if I'm not careful. And it was more my weaknesses that allowed me to understand that three was my number and then I could see some of the other things from there. Do you remember?
Speaker 1:specifically a couple things that stood out.
Speaker 2:I would say probably one of the biggest things is the way I handle feelings. You know that you had said that three is in that feelings triad, but it sits right in the seat of it and you would think that that means you're good with your feelings. But not so much. And I realized that I had spent much of my life keeping my feelings on surface level, where they were manageable, because efficiency is very important to me and so, like you said, it's I'm going to categorize it, I'm going to put this over here in this box, so I don't have to deal with it right now. I'm going to, I'm going to intellectualize it or whatever it is to make it make sense. So I put it over here, you know, so that I don't have to have it interfere and make my life messy. And so it kept.
Speaker 2:It kept a lot of those things right at the surface which, when I realized I was doing that, I it, it was actually revolutionary to me that I'm like, oh my goodness, this is, this is something that I do and it's not healthy and it's not good for my relationships and it's not authentic.
Speaker 2:And so for me, just trying to be my best, authentic self, it was kind of pushing back on some of those core things, those just things I didn't even know I was doing because I had no idea, you know. Sometimes you just don't, you don't know until you know, and then when you know you're like, oh okay, I may need to make some changes. Because if this is my, this is my go-to, to lean away because it's messy or it's hard, then maybe I need to lean in and experience those things in order to be authentic, because I think the other part of that that resonates with me is the ability to be a chameleon. Yes, I can be whoever I need to be in any given situation to meet the moment, and sometimes that's a really good thing because I can get what needs to be done and I can connect to people. Yeah, and that's a good thing. But the bad side of that is, if you do that too often, you start to lose sight of who you really are. You're not quite sure who you are as your authentic self.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really good. The chameleon, how you handle feelings, those are all. Yeah, those are all the things that kind of the curtain got pulled back and it's like, oh shoot, I am kind of this way and that's. You know, the Enneagram has that ability If we, if we honestly engage with it. It's that ability to show you blind spots that you weren't aware of, and it can be really uncomfortable, but also like there's so much growth potential.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I'm not sure that a lot of the people closest to me appreciated my journey that a lot of the people closest to me appreciated my journey. Oh funny, Because now I'm like oh, this way that I was presenting for all those years is now going to change, because that wasn't necessarily healthy. So now let's be honest about everything. Let's explore our feelings To the other end and they're all like what? Where did this come from?
Speaker 1:That is so funny.
Speaker 2:We're being healthy. I'm so healthy now Because by being healthy.
Speaker 1:I'm succeeding Exactly and to be. You know you're a three and you say I've heard it say like, for example, threes who are in recovery will say like I'm going to be the best at recovering and I'm going to do all the things and learn all the lessons and completely turn it around.
Speaker 2:And it is. I think that was actually the more the larger motivator, as I wanted to win. I'm going to win at self-growth. Yes, I'm going to win at self-growth. Yes, I'm going to win at being yeah.
Speaker 1:That's so good. What's?
Speaker 2:wrong with?
Speaker 1:that? What's wrong with winning? So okay, so you mentioned about this class that you led at church, and then it was maybe a year or a year and a half later that I did an additional class.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, because that first class we had such a great reaction to it. I mean there was 50 people that were a part of that class. I did it twice a day. I did a morning class and an evening class and so, combined, there was 50 people in that class and it was so fun to watch this, the conversations that came out of it, so like even at church on Sunday morning in between services, you'd hear people from the class discussing their Enneagram numbers and what they had discovered.
Speaker 2:And I love that. I mean, at its core, I love classes because I want to learn and I want to, I love to teach. I was a teacher for nine years, before I was a pastor, but my biggest, my biggest motivators, I want to see connections with people and this, the Enneagram, connected people. I mean it just brought people together and it was so fun to watch. And so when that class ended, there was a bit of it was bittersweet.
Speaker 2:You know we were sad because we had like, really like, felt we'd done this thing together, we had gone through this together and I knew I wanted to do something at some point to follow up. But because I am I'm not an expert I didn't. I didn't know what I could bring to the table. So actually, when, when we met and we talked about it, I'm like this is perfect because you know you're you're my resident Enneagram expert and so I could, we could work together and do this, this thing, and it was fun, it was awesome, and it took it to the next level, like the deeper, because you never run out of stuff. You really don't, oh, absolutely you never run out of material when it comes to understanding the Enneagram, which is one of the things I love.
Speaker 1:I was thinking this morning. There's we who like to learn the Enneagram there's. You're never going to learn it all because you're never going to talk to every person in the world and as long as there's still people who exist and all different individuals like, there's always more to learn. Yes, you know a hundred different types of Enneagram threes. Yes, you know a hundred different types of Enneagram threes. Okay, so let's talk a little about the core fears and the core desires specifically. So let me read the core desires again of Enneagram three. So core desires to feel valuable and worthy, to be and appear successful and admired, to be and appear successful and admired. So there's this thing going on with Enneagram threes where the desire to be worthy and to have value to their people is really behind the scenes of what's fueling the desire for success. So there's this belief that forms in Enneagram threes that says if I achieve things and I accomplish things, then I'm proving my worth and people will love me. So can you talk a little bit about what those core desires are like for you?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm just trying to think of how that manifested in my life, you know, throughout throughout my life. Yeah, and I do think being admired has always been something that is important to me, and it sounds like I hate to admit that because it sounds so vain, but I always it's like I want to be seen as competent. That's really important to me. Yes, like if somebody thinks I'm not competent, then it's just like, yeah, I can't, competency is huge, it is. I want to be better, I do. I just I want to be better because I think that I can and I and I. I guess it's going to sound I'm going to sound so vain when I say this, but I think I am better, but then like what do you mean better than other people or like continually getting better?
Speaker 2:Yes, Like that. I have the potential to continue to be better. It's like I can keep learning, I can keep growing. I'm going to and people are going to think I'm awesome, look at me, I'm awesome, right, but with that, I think that oftentimes throughout, and I can look back at this because I want to take the good aspects, but I also want to understand how that I can put people off. I can hold people at an arm's length, because why would I want to show them my flaws when they are drawn to me? Because of my strengths.
Speaker 2:Oh man Right, and I mean I've been in front of people my whole life. I'm a singer, I'm whole life I'm a singer, I'm in theater, I'm a speaker, I was a teacher. I mean I have spent my entire life in front of people, on stage, on stage, and been very comfortable in that role and been told often that I've impressed people. Oh, you're impressive, oh impressive. And so then it's like, oh, okay. But then somewhere in my mind it's like, okay, so what if I take away those impressive things? Who am I without? Who am I without a good voice? Who am I without an inspirational message? Or who am I without the ability to lead and teach? Yeah, you know, and am I anybody without those things? Because those things define me, oh, that's so good so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the, but I also like them. So it's like, yeah, right, yeah, it's awesome and it's fun and it's exciting, and you know but, it's the, it's the finding of the what's healthy and what's unhealthy, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and drilling down to motivations too. Yes, absolutely, and every day it can change Like you could.
Speaker 2:You can be on autopilot one day and then be thinking more intentionally the next day, and it's funny you say that, though, because, like you say, autopilot, one of the things about three is that sometimes they can take shortcuts to try and get to their goal, and I do know that I do that, and I hate that about myself. I'm like I know I shouldn't, and sometimes I'm like, for example, I don't even know. It's just like I think, because I efficiency is so important to me, yes, yes, and sometimes I'm like, well, there's, I could do this long, detailed, drawn out way, or I could cut to the chase, make a list and know what I need to do in order to get from point A to point B, check something off.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love it. I love a list.
Speaker 2:I love a list, I love checking things off. A list, uh huh. So I don't know, does that go into my six?
Speaker 1:philosophicalist. So I don't know, does that go into my six? Sure, yeah, I mean I think it's about. I mean I think it just it kind of like emulates the whole idea of achieving things. It's like the more boxes I check off, the more impressive I can be.
Speaker 2:Yes, look at all this.
Speaker 1:I like the adjectives you're using Impressive, admired and this is something that we find with threes is that they are very attuned to how other people are seeing and experiencing them. Yes, right, yes. Are you able to pretty easily read how people are reacting to you?
Speaker 2:Yes, Are you able to pretty easily read how people are reacting to you? Yes, and if I perceive that I am not someone's cup of tea, I'm going to win them over.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're not going to shy away from it. You're going to go into it and win them over.
Speaker 2:It depends on the situation. It depends on what I. If I think I can, yeah, I absolutely will Funny. If I think I can succeed, absolutely will funny. If I think I can succeed, I'm gonna lean in. If I think the app, the odds are that I will fail, then I'm gonna make. I'm gonna tell myself it's not worth it and it's not important oh, oh, so.
Speaker 1:So. So you're forecasting whether the chances of your success and if the chances of success seem low, you're not even going to go for it.
Speaker 2:Although I will try in small ways just to test the waters. This is a funny example. So stupid. I've been having dental work done the last several months and the at an endodontist and the endodontist bedside manner Not great, a little standoffish and I am very much. I don't like medical things, I get squeamish, I get scared. Like medical things. I get squeamish, I get scared and I need to understand what's happening. Tell me, let me understand what's happening, and then I can make peace with it. And he just is very much aloof, not leaning in, and I'm like I don't think he likes me. So I went in for a follow-up and I just started chatting about something and drawn him in. All of a sudden he was chatting with me and I'm like I have won the dentist.
Speaker 1:That is an amazing story. I have won him over now.
Speaker 2:You will like me because I am a joy.
Speaker 1:I'm likable. You got to like me, mr Dentist. Yeah, that is such a good story.
Speaker 2:I know it's the stupidest thing, but I'm like I need you to like me because, well, being part of it is, you know it's scary Dental stuff is scary, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:So again.
Speaker 2:I don't like medical things. They freak me out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I get the information thing too Like the more you know.
Speaker 2:It's a control. It is very much a control thing, but I think that's pretty normal for a lot of people. So, yeah, that's a fair ask.
Speaker 1:Were you on stage as a kid? Yes, tell me about that.
Speaker 2:Well, my dad was a senior pastor at a large church in Indiana, like at its peak. There was 1300 people that attended the church Before that, before he was at that church, he was a youth minister and I remember I sang my very first solo when I was four years old. Oh wow, I am a promise, I am a possibility, with a capital P do you have a memory of?
Speaker 2:that performance, I do, wow, I do it was at a camp, because my dad used to be a dean at a Christian camp and it was all as. But you know, I was always making friends with all the kids because I thought I was part of the gang and I sang. Yeah, I sang on stage and then we sang as a family and I sang solos. I mean even at very young age on stage singing solos. Yeah, I did theater, as in high school. Scared college, I mean not not bad, scared, anxious. Sometimes there's a, there's a level of anxiousness that's good, like it kind of gives you an energy where you feed off.
Speaker 1:I love people, you know it's like you feed off the people and that's that's the best do you uh remember when, when you were young, like getting a rush from being on stage and having all the people look at you?
Speaker 2:I don't know, maybe I mean, I don't know I I just I genuinely enjoyed, I enjoy, I love, I love music, I love and I love singing. Um, I, I did do theater, like I said, when I was younger and then I just recently got back into it, a few years ago with community theater, and it's just fun. I like the end. It's an energy I know that I'm saying that again, but it is. There's an energy between not only the people on stage but then the audience. That's a part of it, and because a good audience makes a difference in a, in a theater's production you know, it just makes it's just makes, it's just a good, it's fun.
Speaker 1:It's fun. It's so fun. Yeah, I love that and I can hear you know, I can hear with you have talked about fun so much and like of course you can mistype as a seven, because when I mean when we learn the Enneagram at first, a lot of times it's like let's talk about the stereotypes and Enneagram 7s are fun. So if you like fun, you must be a 7. Because only one-ninth of people are fun.
Speaker 2:I reject that. I can't remember what it was about the 7 that I finally thought, no, that's not me, I can't remember. I can't remember. I think it was more that I I identified more with the characteristics of the three than it was that I didn't with the characteristics of the seven. Yeah, that makes sense. So, um, yeah, and then I think well, sorry, and I'm a two wing, which you know, I think is part of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how's that come out in your work?
Speaker 2:I actually think leaning into my two wing helps me stay grounded because the two is more relational, and so I think one of the things that's helped me be more healthy is to understand the relational elements. Like I'm finding success through the success of people around me, like that genuinely brings me joy. And I think when I was a little more immature and not so sure in who I was, you need those accolades, you need that, that attention, and I find that as I've gotten older, I just don't need it that much anymore. It's not as important to me. And it's important to me when I manage a lot of people, a lot of volunteers, and when my volunteers do really well. I'm so proud of them, I'm so happy for them and I'm like it doesn't need to be me all the time and I'm perfectly comfortable with that.
Speaker 1:Now, and it feels like the team is sharing in the success together.
Speaker 2:Yes, I love team. Yeah, I do.
Speaker 1:So a little more about the core fears, Enneagram three core fears failing to be or appear successful and then also being worthless. How does that hit you? Just the language of, of worthlessness, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Know, I struggle with that a little bit because I feel like it butts up against my values, my inherent values that all people have worth, and so I know, I know that I do. Um, I think it probably can manifest in different ways of maybe in the fact that if I'm going to do something, I have to excel at it. Okay, like, if I'm average, then that's not good enough. What's the point? And it's funny, I was just having a conversation with my son about this yesterday because he was saying I think more people should lean into their averageness, that most of us, in most things, are probably average and that's not bad. You know, you, you can be special or you can be excellent in some things, but in a lot of things in life, it's okay that I'm, you know, the same as everybody else. That's not, that's not like a, it's not I don't know the word I'm looking for it's not an indictment against me, but I don't have to be the best at everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, and so and I think that might be part of it Like even going back to school, I have to find that balance of well, no, I want an A, I don't want, I don't, I need an A, I'm going to do this.
Speaker 1:I'm doing it right.
Speaker 2:I need to do it right and I need to do it well. But also I'm going to skim this reading because I'm going to get through it quickly and most efficiently so does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you can still get an A by skimming. I can Then great, yeah, you're like I'm doing good. And also saving time. Yeah, it's a process, you're like I'm doing good, and also saving time, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's a process. Okay, let's talk more about the heart triad and threes in the heart triad. I do want to spend some time with this because it can be, like we said earlier, kind of hard to understand. Like, wait are threes heart types, but they are very intellectual and think a lot. So, um, I I want to give you a chance first, if you want to try, like in your own words, to talk about what that relationship with feelings is like and and what it's like to be a heart type. But but maybe it doesn't show up quite like a two or a four does. Right?
Speaker 2:I do think some of it has to do.
Speaker 2:We talked about a little bit about control. So I remember in my undergrad one of the classes we talked about like our brains, you know, like where you talk about being right-brained or left-brained, and we did like this assessment to see where we were and I was literally like this big circle right in the middle. I was middle-brained and I think it was because it's this intellectual, like I want to think about things, I want to learn, I want to be logical, but also there is this feeling part of me too, because I, I, I intuit things and I do. I do care about people and people are, you know, I do care about people around me genuinely care about, like, about the state of our world, and I can, I can sometimes, sometimes be carried away by those things. So I think sometimes it comes back to the idea of of managing it, like I, I do think there's a bit about the compartmentalizing that I will, I will watch a movie and bawl my eyes out and think it is very cathartic, or I'll read a book or I'll, you know, even sometimes like listening to to someone speak and being inspired, like I cry for good things, you know, because I'm so inspired and it overwhelms me and it makes me cry. But I feel like that's a very like controlled environment, right? If, if, if I'm led to my emotions in an environment where I feel like they are out of control, I mean, it's like the flushed face, my feelings are hurt. I mean I, I tend to cry when I'm angry. Um, instead of getting like angry, I cry because it's like I think it's a lack of control or something. Um, but then I want to set them aside over here and not lean into them, because I want to set them aside for when I have the time and energy to actually move through them.
Speaker 2:And the downside of that is sometimes you keep putting them aside. You keep putting them aside, you never actually move through them, and so it takes almost an intentionality to say, okay, I may not be able to attend to this right now, but I need to feel my feelings, I need to give myself permission to feel it, and I think that comes with health a little bit. I've gotten better at that over the years, but, like I said earlier on, I would say maybe until I mean, I'm I'm 53 I forget how old I am all the time Maybe until my 40s I didn't even know that I was not allowing the emotional depth that I needed. I didn't even realize that I kept things just mostly at a surface level and I'd be touched by things and I would care about things. But to actually allow myself to feel those deep, deep feelings and ask myself what do I think about this?
Speaker 2:What is my body telling me about this? You know what is what is my mind? Now you know I'm going to intellectualize it. I'm going to because sometimes intellectualizing something is a coping mechanism. Right, I can intellectualize this. I can, I can, I can make sense of it and therefore justify it, when sometimes we just need to feel the feel, feel the things we feel, and acknowledge that and why, and lean into that. Why do I feel this way? Why does my body react this way when I hear this news or when I'm treated this way? And I don't know if that's confusing or not.
Speaker 1:Well, what do you think the the resistance is for? Threes going farther with their feelings, like is it about that feels like weakness, or is it about that's going to slow me down too much, or is it about I just don't want to be uncomfortable? Yes, Everything.
Speaker 2:Because every time you said one of those, I'm like, oh yeah, that that makes sense too. Oh yeah, that makes sense too. It's dependent on the situation, right, because every situation is different. I think about different things that I've struggled with in my life. Um, I, I, I am in a male dominated field, right, as a pastor, um, I grew up basically being told that women weren't even allowed to be pastors, and not in a mean way. It was just a matter of fact, right? So matter of fact, yes. So when I ended up on this journey, this was not the journey I chose for myself. If you had told me 20 years ago, oh, you're going to be a pastor, and I would have been like, huh, no, that's not what I'm going to. That's, this is a mix.
Speaker 2:I went to Bible college right out of right out of high school, and there weren't females in this program. Yet I was taking, I found, and I was kind of frittering around, I didn't know what I wanted to do, so, but I was always a good student and I enjoyed it. But I found myself taking all these like exposition classes and studying classes, and I was very good at them, you know, but I didn't know what to do with that. It's like, ok, I'm good at this, so I'm just going to learn it from my own knowledge, I guess. But I would never do anything with it aside from just my own knowledge. I'm just figuring out what I'm going to do with my life. And then, years later, it's like, oh, okay, and it actually took other people in my life who saw something in me and said this is something you know, this is something we see in you, this is something we would you consider going down this path, and at that point it was surprising but exciting. I did go back to school at that point to get a master's in ministry. That was back in. I graduated with that degree in 2016.
Speaker 2:So I'm not sure that answered your question. But the why do we struggle with the feelings and feeling? I think sometimes this is going to sound. I know people are like, oh, it's the woman thing again. But I am a woman. I am a woman.
Speaker 2:It's an important part of my it's an important part of my identity.
Speaker 2:But I think I think that adds a layer to my my threeness as well, of what I thought I was allowed to do, what I thought I was capable of doing, and then giving myself permission to lean into those things Because I mean, in undergrad, when I finished my undergrad, I was heading into corporate training.
Speaker 2:That was the direction I was leaning in, and then I had a second child and my life took another turn and I ended up down a way different path, um, and I'm grateful for for each turn because it obviously it's made me who I am.
Speaker 2:But through that I've I've I've wrestled with my own understanding of what it means to be a woman, what it means to be a woman leader, what it means to be a woman in the church, and, and I think sometimes you, you give yourself, you allow yourself to do the things, like I said, that you know you're you're going to be allowed to do, that you know you're going to succeed at. And if you've been not given access to certain things, then I'm just going to stay right here where it's safe and I can, I can succeed well in this area because it's safe. But then to go, to go further and to challenge myself into something something more. And when I started doing that, it's like it opened up, you know, like a whole wide world of opportunity. Hmm, is that too complex? I don't know. I feel like I was kind of all over the place.
Speaker 1:I have like six follow-up questions but I'm just going to ask one. So I'm curious about when you started this, your journey diverting into becoming a pastor. Okay, and it sounds like you're saying there were plenty of people in your life who would say you can't do that. So I'm just curious, like what was that like as a three, like being really aware of how people were seeing you?
Speaker 2:So it's. It's kind of a dichotomy it's this, yet this, both things, right. There's a part of me that is going to say you're not going to tell me what I can't do, yes, and I'm going to show you I'm going to do this and I'm going to do it well and I'm going to succeed, right. So there's that part of it. But then there's this other part where I can't help. But people are going to look at me a certain way.
Speaker 2:I can't tell you how many times I've been in. I've been in a place where they're like of other pastors, you know, and I remember specifically being this one place and they're like. So can the? Can the women's pastors raise their hands? And everybody in the room looked at me because I was the only female in the room. Oh, and I didn't raise my hand, and then they said so, can the children's pastors raise their hand? Everybody in the room looked at me and I didn't raise my hand because I wasn't a children's pastor, just what's?
Speaker 2:It's just assumed, yeah, and so you can't help, but carry that with you. Is, is this? Well, people just assume this, and so not only am I being judged for being a pastor, but I'm being judged for being a woman, and so it adds this other layer that not only do you have to be good, but if you're not good we're going to blame your gender. Oh, and I did feel that Like, if you're not good, like a male pastor can have an off day, and people are like, yeah, you know, it's just an off day. Female pastor can't have an off day, because if they have an off day, it's like well, you know, she is a woman.
Speaker 1:You shouldn't even be here. Of course you're going to have an off day.
Speaker 2:So it's that added, that added pressure to to excel, not only for the calling itself, but because I'm representing my gender. Yeah, absolutely so. Did that answer your question?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great. And then also threes really don't like to disappoint the people they love. Is that any part of this too Like? Did you feel like you were disappointing anybody in your life?
Speaker 2:I mean always. I've always I see that aspect of myself. Growing up, I was always like I didn't. I could see this like it's like three sometimes go into a nine.
Speaker 2:Um, I like for people to get along. You know, I want, I wanted my parents to be proud of me. I wanted to be the beacon of you know, I always got along with adults and I got my. My friend's parents always liked me and and I I did want to be that poster child for what it meant to be honestly, what it meant to be a good Christian girl. Um, so when I started, you know, deconstructing I know people, a lot of people, don't like that word, but it is what it is right when I started deconstructing my faith in light of what I was learning and what I was experiencing, just in my understanding of how God works and moves in this world, I was.
Speaker 2:I think I did disappoint some people from my past, from people that have known me my whole life, who just make certain assumptions. You know, oh well, you're so and so's daughter, so we can just assume this about you. And then, when I didn't meet those expectations, they felt cheated and then I felt Not angry. I don't think that's the right word, but I felt like I needed to defend myself, Like I am allowed, I mean even it is funny Like I'm. I am a grownup and sometimes people are so like people still see me because I grew up in the area, because I sang on a stage when I was 10 years old. They think they know exactly who I am Right and it it's. And they still see me as little Becky Jones and then when I disappoint them, it's like I understand, but also I'm a grown-up yeah, you're an adult, you're your own person.
Speaker 2:I am my own person. So, um, but those things made me who I am. I'm very like I said, I'm very grateful for the, grateful for the journey I am. I'm very like I said, I'm very grateful for the I'm grateful for the journey.
Speaker 1:I am yeah. Okay, let's talk about relationships. We already know that you're a people person. You love people. What would you say are some of your top values in relationships? And then, if you could tie them in like, how do your top values and relationships connect with your Enneagram threeness?
Speaker 2:I knew you were going to ask this question and so I actually was like, okay, how do they fit in with my Enneagram-ness and why do I?
Speaker 2:I did make some notes, honestly. The first, honestly, the first thing I wrote was honesty. Okay, and I do think that maybe that wasn't as important to me in my past that it is to me now, because honesty and authenticity are so important to me now to stay grounded in the healthy side of three. So that's why that is important to me and I and I I know honesty is a tricky thing Like you can you can not tell a lie and still be deceitful, and it's those and it makes my skin crawl, right. I'm like, just be honest, just be authentic, just be who you are and and I respect that and I gravitate towards it Like I find it so attractive in people, it's like a magnet to me when people are authentic. I like funny people. I don't know how that fits in with my, I don't know, can you tell me? I don't know. I just I like people that are funny, that make me laugh. I love to laugh, yeah, I love to laugh till I cry. I have, I have a very loud and Effectious laugh when I get going. I like people who will listen and not try to fix me and not try to fix me.
Speaker 2:I am a talker and sometimes I just I verbally process, sometimes not always, sometimes it's in my head and it just depends. But I don't want someone to come and give me the solutions and the answers. I just need to say what I need to say and prattle on about it, sometimes Just to get it from the inside to the outside of me. Sometimes we just need to get that from the outside to the inside. I like spontaneity, okay, fun, you know. Just say, hey, let's go do this, let's. And sometimes I don't know that these fit necessarily into my threeness or my. I'm getting older, so I think it changes. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Are you pretty? Are you a planner? Are you a pretty planned scheduled person?
Speaker 2:So I never used to be, but I am OK. I am very much a planner now, but it depends, I think, when, honestly, I became a planner when I was in my first grad school program and I had three kids at home and I was working a full-time job and a part-time job.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2:And so I had to plan, or I would sink, and you know, and it was part of success, right, in order to set myself up for success, then I need to be prepared, and so I learned how I learned time management very well during that time and I think that I'm, I think I've carried those skills with me now because it's part of efficiency. So, when it comes to work, I am a planner because I don't like to leave things to chance and I want to be successful, I want to, I want to make sure I'm, I'm competent, so I'm not gonna willy nilly, you know, I, I like, I, I there's ways that I do things. I have systems that I've created over over the years and sometimes that takes a while to figure out what works. I'm not. I wouldn't say that I'm rigid in those plans. I'm always, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm plans, I'm a planner with open hands.
Speaker 2:I would say that when it comes to personal, like I said, I like a little spontaneity. Oh, let's go run and do this, let's go do this, let's, you know, whatever. But when we're traveling, I am the planner and that. But I plan with open hands. It's like when we've done a few international trips, I'll do all the research. You know I am the one that I'll make a list. I'm like these are the free things, these are the not, these are the things, and then when we get there, we can choose from that list, depending on how we feel that day, you know. So there's a little bit of spontaneity, but also I don't want to come into a situation where I know nothing and feel out of control, incompetent.
Speaker 1:Yes, I want to, I want to, I want to have the best scenario. So so, yes, yes, I am a planner, but not not rigidly. I'm willing to a talk last week by an Enneagram teacher. I think his name is Milton Stewart I'll cut this out. If I said the wrong name I'll look it up. But in Milton he was basically giving practical action steps for each Enneagram type to take for growth and for Enneagram threes. He said here's the action step for threes schedule your feelings. Oh, not to tell a three, you just need to feel things all the time but say, hey, like, schedule a 15 minute block and then you can feel your feelings. Then yes, and I think you were kind of alluding to that, like you, you understand that, that you can maybe put them to the side for now, but but come back later well, that is one of the things I've learned over the last um several years is the connection to my body yeah and and allowing myself to feel those feelings in a healthy way.
Speaker 2:And so, whether that's, I do do that, you know, through hiking, through exercise, through just being in nature, that's a huge thing for me because it allows me to process and because I don't, I do like people, but I also enjoy solitude. You know, I enjoy that time to just be by myself and have that, that time to just just be. Yeah, so, but also paying attention, I think that part of, like I said, paying attention to being in my body and feeling that and allowing myself, I think that's how we feel our feelings sometimes, so that we can recognize them and then work through them. Yeah, and that's a learned skill it is. I wasn't always able to do that, so OK, we're getting towards the end.
Speaker 1:Just a couple of things left on the list. All right, of course, I made a list for all these episodes. So, ok, that's your Enneagram Oneness, right? Yeah, of course I got it. Yeah, that's. What makes me slightly different is Enneagram Oneness can learn to be flexible and be open, but usually, like on autopilot, we would be rigid about the plans and be open, but usually, like on autopilot, we would be rigid about the plans. Um, okay, so here's some nicknames nicknames compiled from around the internet and enneagram world, and which of these do you like the most? Would you want to use for yourself? Nicknames for enneagram three the performer, the professional, the charmer, the achiever.
Speaker 2:I like a lot of them, but I think the one I typically gravitate towards is the achiever. So love it. I mean, I love the other, the professional, I don't care as much about, which is funny, because I want to be competent but I don't need to be. But you know, everyone wants to be a charmer, right.
Speaker 1:Charm the world.
Speaker 2:But I think the one that I always identify the most with is the achiever so.
Speaker 1:so we're going to talk about the book the road back to you by ian cron, and I'm going to read from this list of what it's like to be a three. I'm going to read 10 of them, okay, and then you could just uh, respond. Tell me a couple of them, them that you relate to, or, if you want to talk about, okay, what it's like to be a three. It's important for me to come across as a winner. Yes, I love walking in a room and, knowing I'm making a great first impression on the crowd, I could persuade Bill Gates to buy a Mac.
Speaker 2:This one not so much. I don't think that one's kind of weird Maybe but I don't care.
Speaker 1:Not really a salesperson, I do like a Mac. The keys to my happiness are efficiency, productivity and being acknowledged as the best. I do like that. I don't like it when people slow me down.
Speaker 2:That one not so much. I do like that. I don't like it when people slow me down. Not so much I mean maybe it depends.
Speaker 1:It depends In a group project. Yes, oh, group projects.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you are in school. So you, I am, and I was in a group project this last semester and we met and I set up, I'm like, ok, let's meet here before class and we can dish this out, like even way before, and I'm the oldest one in the class. And then I told them as we started, we worked it out and I said listen, I can be kind of bossy when it comes to things like this. I said, but I don't have to be so if, if I'm too much, you tell me and you will not hurt my feelings, it won't hurt my feelings. I said, but and one of the girls said no, I like it when people tell me what to do. Perfect, then we are in a symbiotic, we're good.
Speaker 1:OK, I know how to oh, I know how to airbrush failure this one, so it looks like success.
Speaker 2:Yes, I do know how to do this. This one like this one almost feels like I'm being attacked.
Speaker 1:You can just reframe it Absolutely, absolutely. That's amazing, yes.
Speaker 2:And more for my. It's like I know what I'm doing. I think it's more about other people not seeing me and I need them to know that. Oh no, this is a good thing, this is exactly what I wanted. Right Inside I I'm like that is not what you wanted. It's about the presentation. It is about the presentation. Yes.
Speaker 1:I'd rather lead than follow any day that's what I.
Speaker 2:I could go either way if I, if it's a good leader, I will. I am okay, I am, I will follow a good leader if I trust them and and trust in their vision and what they're doing. And and there I do want a good communicator it's important to me that a good leader can communicate what it is that they OK, that they want so communicate clearly yes, I am competitive to a fault.
Speaker 2:No, not anymore. I don't know that I ever was. I was never very good at the sports. No, not anymore. I don't know that I ever was. I was never very good at the sports. I'm not good at sportsing. So sportsing I mean some of it, but uh, but I'm competitive.
Speaker 2:I tend to be competitive in things that don't matter, like what, like a card game, or, or I talked about the dentist before I did say I'd gone to the dentist and I said okay, we want you to do these things and you know and come back. And I came back six months and I said I'm going to win, I'm going to do all the things and I'm going to do them really good. I'm going to win the dentist. And I came back and they're like yeah, there's really not, but you, your, your teeth look great. There's really. It didn't take us very long at all because everything looks like I won. My jaw was dropped during that whole story. That's amazing. I won the dentist.
Speaker 2:So sometimes I think it's more about competing with myself. Yeah, if that makes sense, yeah, but it is, I do. I will say, sometimes I'm not competitive and I think it goes back to knowing if I can succeed or fail. If I don't think I can win, I'm not. And so like, because I'm not the best at sports, I'm not terrible, but I'm not the best by any means Um, because I know I can't win, then I'm not going to be competitive, then I'm just like eh, whatever, it doesn't matter, I don't care.
Speaker 1:Makes perfect sense. Okay, one more. I can find a way to win over and connect with just about anyone.
Speaker 2:I think that's mostly true.
Speaker 1:I like the way that you responded to these things, because some of them you do relate to and some of them you don't relate to, and that is perfectly normal, because not all threes are exactly the same. Like, there's a lot of diversity and differences within the Enneagram three type. But what I also noticed is there were a couple where you were like, oh, that one hurts, that feels like I'm being attacked, so that's a good sign, right. Like, if somebody is reading this list, you don't have to relate to all 20 of these things, but if there's a couple that make you feel like, oh, somebody's seeing inside my soul and it hurts, then that's a good sign that that might be your type. Yeah, we're going to wrap it up. Is there anything else that you think people should really know about Enneagram threes?
Speaker 2:Enneagram threes make the world go round. They're like your hardest workers. They're I mean, I know there's no such thing as a bad number. When I taught the Enneagram, I said that every week and I do believe that. But any, any, any team, any company, any, whatever, if they have threes, they're gonna get it done. They make things happen. They make things happen, they do. I love being a three heck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do well, I'm really happy to know you and to have learned more about the Enneagram with you. Um, this has been a really fun really fun chat it's been fun. All right, thank you so much, becky. Absolutely thanks for having me.
