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Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast
Welcome to Towards Eden Enneagram, a show where we dissect our Enneagram types so we can understand ourselves and have way better relationships.
The Enneagram is a tool that illuminates our motivations, our blind spots, and the differences between myself and others.
We can use it to see ourselves more clearly and to get healthier.
The Enneagram isn’t about what we do. It’s about WHY we do what we do.
Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast
#31 - Enneagram 101: What is an Enneagram 4? with Michaela Elizabeth
My awesome Enneagram Four guest is Michaela Elizabeth!
Type 4 is known as “The Individualist” or “The Romantic.” Fours are authentic, emotional, unique, and want to find deep meaning in their lives and in the world.
Michaela tells us about the Type Four core fears of being ordinary, mundane, or insignificant. I enjoyed what she shared about many Type Fours' love for storytelling - this conversation taught me a lot about Enneagram Four's communication style.
Enneagram Four's core desire is to be special, unique, and to have a significant identity.
Michaela Elizabeth is a Certified Enneagram Coach, a writer, and the host of Your Story Matters Podcast.
I was a guest on Michaela's podcast - here's a link to that episode.
Connect with Michaela on Instagram here.
Grab the Enneagram Guide for your type at work for $1! Enter code 'HIELYSE' at checkout.
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$1 SALE - grab a Guide for your Enneagram type at work here with coupon code HIELYSE (the code will work on any of the $8.99 Types at Work guides) 🥂
Get my free Guide to the 9 Enneagram Types 🌱
This guide is a great quick-reference to help you remember the types.
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The Enneagram is a tool that illuminates our motivations and our blind spots and the differences between ourselves and others. In this series we explore the question what is the Enneagram? That's the title of the first episode in this series, so if you haven't listened to the first episode yet, go back and listen. It gives an overview of the Enneagram system as a whole. Here's the most important thing I want you to remember. The Enneagram is not about what we do. It's about why we do what we do.
Speaker 1:Today's episode is what is an Enneagram type four? Here's what Ian Cron and Suzanne Stabile say about fours Creative, sensitive and moody. They are motivated by a need to be understood. And moody, they are motivated by a need to be understood, experience their oversized feelings and avoid being ordinary. Fours are in the heart triad and are driven by feelings. They focus inwardly on their own feelings. As a heart triad, type fours take in and relate to life from their heart and they're more image conscious than other numbers. And now it's time to learn all about fours from my conversation with Mikayla Elizabeth. Our type four guest is Mikayla Elizabeth. Mikayla, she hosts a podcast called your Story Matters. She is Enneagram certified coach through your Enneagram Coach and currently, michaela is working on getting a couple certifications in life coaching and journal therapy. So, michaela, thank you for making time. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:I'm so excited.
Speaker 1:Yay, Michaela. Tell us where in the world are you and what do you do in life.
Speaker 2:Great question. So I am currently in Northeast Ohio, where we have six seasons of weather and counting, so that is always a grand old time. What do I do in life? Host the podcast. I'm in my third season. It's the joy of my life and, as we were talking before I hit record, you know why stop with one certification when you can just acquire knowledge and learn more, in order to not only educate yourself and go through personal growth, but also like learn how does this also help other people? So love learning and love getting to build the repertoire, if you will, of just like what I can offer the world. I'm a huge reader, so book girly and yeah, with all this nice weather that we're having, also an outside girly too, with just like hiking and being with family and friends. So, yeah, that is me.
Speaker 1:Lovely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're kind of getting more well-rounded with what you offer clients, and that's really awesome, yeah, so we're here to talk about Enneagram type four, to explain about fours, and of course in one episode we can't capture all the complexity of any Enneagram type, but we just want to give an introduction for the basics, some basics for people to start getting a better understanding of four. So I'm going to read about Enneagram four's core desire and core fears and then we're going to have you tell your story about how you discovered that you're an Enneagram four.
Speaker 1:I love it, let's do it discovered that you're an Enneagram 4. I love it, let's do it. So Enneagram 4s are called the individualist, and the core desire of type 4 is they want to be unique, special and authentic, and 4s want to have a significant identity. So the significance of the identity is very important for 4s, and so when we think about core fears and core desires, this is what's the things that are driving our behavior and our decisions. So the core fears for type four are having no identity or significance, kind of like that feeling of being obsolete or irrelevant and then being inadequate or misunderstood. And then type fours they're in the heart triad, so they lead with feelings, and feelings typically would come before thinking and before the gut instincts. So now, michaela, can you tell us about how you discovered that you were a type four? What are some things about four that you really connected with, discovered?
Speaker 2:that you were a type four. What are some things about four that you really connected with? Great question, I'd love to. I'd love to answer that.
Speaker 2:I just even thinking about this today, looking back over my life, there was always just this innate sense that I did not belong anywhere. So in my family, in school, in church, where I grew up and like it, just anywhere, there was this feeling of I don't know, this feeling of like I'm not from here. That sounds really wonky, but just like there's just something very different. And quite literally, I was maybe in elementary school and I was looking at the sky on the drive into school and I'm like I cannot wait for my parents to tell me one day that I'm adopted, because I felt so out of it with my family, I looked too much like my mom. So obviously I was not adopted.
Speaker 2:But just feeling so different in my family, even though there was a lot of similarities between myself and my parents, my brother even just that uniqueness and that way that I stood out was like no one else is, kind of like reciprocating what I do or kind of how I show up. So those were the earliest memories that I have and then I think, finding the Enneagram. I've always been like if there's a BuzzFeed quiz, I'll take it, because who would not want to know what kind of cappuccino you are?
Speaker 1:The era of Facebook quizzes.
Speaker 2:It's something we should just know about, and so I, for many years, have listened to Annie F Downs' podcast. That Sounds Fun. I've always enjoyed her work and a couple summers ago she did this yearly INEA summer series and this one particular year she did all nine types a male and female perspective in the same episode. And so I was living in a different city at the time. I was going on a walk, had my AirPods in and just listening to this episode, and they were just kind of really going on a walk, had my AirPods in and just listening to this episode and they were just kind of really going through a deep dive of type fours, like we're going to do today. And I'm just walking and I'm just like I have never felt more seen in my entire life and I knew that I was a four prior to this conversation.
Speaker 2:How I found out, I really don't know. When I first tested, I came out as a nine and a two and I was like, okay, these are great, but again it really didn't click, it didn't perfectly fit. So you keep going trial and error and you're like ooh, and you find out later. You're connected to all of them and sometimes, when you mistype, those are numbers that you're actually connected to in some way, shape or form. They just might not be your main type, but after that podcast, I think I just dived further and further down the rabbit hole of Enneagram and really solidifying on that four and feeling that uniqueness of like, oh my gosh, that feeling of inadequacy, that feeling of I'm different and misunderstood, that was like yes, there's a reason for it and there's an explanation and I love this so much. So I got certified in the Enneagram I think 2021. And I've just been on this journey of continuing to learn about myself, learn how I show up in the world and how the world looks to me, and it's been a wonderful journey so far.
Speaker 1:I remember that podcast series that Annie F Downs did with the male and female of each type, which, by the way, I mean that's a great resource If anybody wants more Instagram content you're listening to this, I can put a link to that series Because, yeah, that was really helpful to describe and I love that.
Speaker 1:You talk about how you felt seen and how it clicked when you heard somebody describing and you know if you would have listened to the episode about the two and about the nine, maybe you would have been like, yeah, I relate to some of those things, but it wouldn't have listened to the episode about the two and about the nine.
Speaker 2:Maybe it would have been like, yeah, I relate to some of those things, but it it wouldn't have clicked in the way the four clicked right yes, exactly, and I think that year I did listen to all of them and I'm like I can pull bits and pieces, but it was that I I want to say like deer in headlights, like the light is shining, kind of thing. You're like, oh, this is it. Um, it's a really surreal kind of feeling, but it's just this thing of like I'm seen from the inside out and kind of everything that never made sense makes sense. It's the weirdest thing to describe.
Speaker 1:But yeah, there was that like this is it moment you're talking about this feeling of feeling out of place, like I don't quite belong, I don't quite fit in even in your family of origin. I feel like I don't quite fit in here and I do find that to be a really, really common sense with enneagram fours. Is this the difficulty of of getting to a place where you feel like you fit in and just you know there's just something different about me. Is that what it is Like? You just feel like there must be something different about me.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that trait, I think, looks different for all kinds of fours, but there's just this sense of something doesn't quite match up. And so I am a social four. That's my subtype, and so group dynamics is a very big thing when it comes to my personality, because I can be in my family, I can be in a group of friends, I can be with strangers, I can be outside at like a concert or just living life. And again, this kind of all goes into feelings, and every type has this, where you kind of walk into a room and you're like, huh, this isn't my room and these aren't my people, and so I've had more of those experiences, rather than walking into a room and feeling like, oh, this is my space and these are my people, and so, yeah, just this thing of like, and I can't tell you why I don't belong.
Speaker 2:That the weird thing about it. It's not like I can say I have this weird thing in my personality or I look a certain way or nothing like that. Nothing about my personage would signal that I'm different. I don't have purple hair, I don't have a leg like not the weird things that you would expect, I just look plain and mundane, and that's what fours don't want to be and they don't want to show up as, but yet I do show up as that anyway, for a variety of reasons probably. But yeah, it just says that there is something that I can't quite pinpoint, and fours spend their whole lives trying to figure out what is that thing and how can we fix it.
Speaker 1:And how do you fix something that's so ambiguous?
Speaker 2:We're still figuring it out. I think it's that search. I think it's just that search to know ourselves better. I think it's that search. I think it's just that search to know ourselves better, because fours also kind of have two feet in different worlds. There is one part of us that we are in done in therapy over the years is okay.
Speaker 2:Am I living in reality or am I living in my fantasy? And so really trying to come back down to earth of just this sense of? Is the problem a universal problem that everyone experiences, or is this problem uniquely yours? And so sometimes we have all these feelings of like this is the world's against me and woe is me, and yada, yada, when really it's like, no, everybody feels misplaced, everybody feels misunderstood, everybody has these sensations of like, oh, I don't belong.
Speaker 2:And yes, so many of these traits of all the Enneagram types shows up in every single one of them.
Speaker 2:But the misunderstood and the identity and the uniqueness is what fours have the most that no other type has, and so it is really just a perspective change and learning to be okay with who you are and that who you are is enough as you are, without having to over-explain, over-indulge.
Speaker 2:You can just show up and be, and that's sometimes easier to say, harder to do and believe, but that's really the goal is learning how to occupy the reality that you're living in. Always wishing things were different, always wishing it was better yeah, just kind of having tools to help get you through those moments of man. It's not what I thought it would be, it's not like what I hoped it would be. Just kind of, yeah, having that perspective of that's okay, because we also live in a broken world and so not everything is going to be perfect, idyllic, the way we want it to be. So it is just that human contention of living as a human right. We can learn so much, we can apply so much to our lives and there just comes a point where it's out of our hands and we just have to be and trust that everything will work out the way that it is supposed to.
Speaker 1:Well, you're citing a lot of good growth steps for fours, so if any fours are listening, you should connect with Michaela, maybe get some coaching. Happy to help? Yeah, happy to help. They can retreat into their imaginations in a way that feels safe and like you're taking shelter from the world. And and I really think it's great how you're describing that those two realities exist the reality and then the uh, the fantasy that's in my imagination um, and it can be helpful to be able to differentiate, because I'm because they can blend right and especially, yeah, maybe if we're younger or we're less mature or we're unhealthy, like I'm sure, the fantasy and the reality start to blend together yeah, definitely and then, as soon as you kind of start that personal growth, you really get to learn, wow, how much you do live in fantasy versus reality.
Speaker 2:And sometimes that's staggering of like no, no, I completely live in reality, not like everything's fine and you brush it off but you're like what do you mean? I don't really live or occupy the space. And then you kind of do some more digging and you're like, if you only knew. So that's a great thing to start. Discovering too is like how much and that's kind of like blind spots of personality that coaching really helps dive into is like what is coming up and it's really about this is how you show up in these areas and how much energy you give to reality versus fantasy. And then you really get to be like, oh, there's so much overlap that sometimes it is hard to differentiate them. But again, it's a part of the personality and learning about it and then recognizing hey, I'm in it versus reality and vice versa. That's been one of the most helpful things as I've been going on. This is figuring out what space am I in and is it serving me for this moment, or do I need to step out of one and into the other?
Speaker 1:for the moment, before I go back yeah.
Speaker 1:Last week I heard somebody talking about the Enneagram types and she kept using the phrase or the term autopilot. So she kept using like our autopilot type right, like it's not that we're putting people into the type four box, it's just the autopilot of type four. Is these things that you're describing and it reminds me of you know, you say there's a blind spot of at first, like maybe earlier in life you would have said, oh no, like I don't live in fantasy. And it could be the same for, let's say, a type one would say angry, I'm not angry, I never get angry, and then realize like yeah, I do have a lot of anger. Or a type two might see pride, I don't have any pride, like I'm not proud, and then discover, oh yeah, like I actually do have a lot of pride about how I can, uh, meet everybody's needs.
Speaker 1:But anyways, that is a good point about how there's blind spots in every type. And we're going to talk about the core desire now a little more. I mean, you've really been doing a good job of covering a lot of these, but let's specifically go to the core desire again, which is to be unique, special and authentic, to have a significant identity. So I want to know, mikayla, what is that like for you, and even if you could think of a story about how you notice this show up.
Speaker 2:And again it looks different to every four. I think, though, you'll find universal themes, which is so hard to be like. This is it? This is what you have to look for. And sometimes it's not as black and white as that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that is why we're trying to get to the basics. So I think what you're saying is really helpful because you gave me caveats of like this is a thing that's universal to fours, and then this is something that could look different based on different fours.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah. So the desire to have this identity. Basically, we just don't want to be like everybody else. Not that everyone else isn't great, not that we think we're better, that's really not what it is. We just want to be different and we want to be seen as that different person. How does that difference show up? That's where it is a unique thing.
Speaker 2:I think mine as an example to kind of continue with that social subtype analogy of me finding it really hard to be in group dynamics because I will feel different or I will feel like I don't belong, even if I'm having a great time, even if it's like a party or an event and I can chat with people and live it up and do all those things, but it's like it just feels like I'm there and I'm not being seen. So that's the thing. My wanting to be unique is, as I alluded to earlier. I don't present myself in a way that's like, wow, she is so unique. There's just something physically different about her the way she dresses, the way she talks, all of that. So nothing like that as like a dead giveaway, you can have purple hair and be a type eight. Changing your hair color has nothing to do with types. But sometimes uniqueness shows up on the outside, but I feel like my uniqueness is more internal and so, if I am in a room of people, what I would absolutely love and this is I don't know, I have to talk with my therapist about this but in a room full of people, I just kind of want to be there and I just want to be seen by somebody, without me having to do the most work to be seen, and that's unique to me and that might speak to other fours as well. But yeah, it's like because you have some types that will show up to a party and like be the life of the party, or they will serve the people at the party, or they will like analyze everybody at the party.
Speaker 2:I just want, even if I'm not the guest of honor, don't have to be Um, I just want someone to like just to say I see you, you know, in just like a very interesting physiological kind of way, like everybody's here, we're all participating, but yet I see you as being different and special and unique. So that's what it is Like. Do I have that same? I don't carry that with me into every group setting that I'm ever in. I don't just like sit back and thinking, ooh, when's someone going to see me? Every group setting that I'm ever in, I don't just like sit back and thinking, ooh, when's someone going to see me?
Speaker 2:Nothing like that, but just to paint that picture of like that's how I want it to look for myself, like I just want someone to see me across the room and maybe I read too many romance novels now that I'm thinking about it of like where are you getting all this stuff from? But just that idea of like someone can see you from across the room and like, get you you're.
Speaker 1:you're very, um, eloquent with describing it, and this is something that I hope, that I hope that this episode goes to the ears of some like young, younger enneagram fours or people who are just discovering their enneagram fours and don't quite have the language to talk about what's going on inside them, and you are describing it really beautifully.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1:Okay, so let's go to the core fears. That was a very excellent overview of the core desires. So the core fears for Enneagram 4 are and it's kind of the reverse of the desires are and it's kind of the reverse of the desires. They fear having no identity or no significance being inadequate and being misunderstood.
Speaker 2:Which of all those do you feel the most often? I think it is the misunderstood and I think that showed up a lot in my childhood. So the two people on this planet who I have over explained and overshared and have tried to get them to understand me are my parents. So how that looked when I was a kid if I had a big thought or a big idea or a big feeling. We already know that I use a lot of words right, so words are how I communicate how we all communicate.
Speaker 2:but there would just be such a theatrical, creative, artistic way that I would use my words to try to explain, to get my point across. So some people are very bullet points, or they're lists, or they are this, that and that, and then we're done. I am just like let me dance, sing a song, paint a picture, let me use everything I can use in my tool belt as, like a seven-year-old or a 13-year-old to like tell you how I'm feeling. So we're very expressive, to kind of boil that down into how we try to communicate basic needs but also just those really deep down needs that maybe a seven-year-old like doesn't, isn't aware that they need. But there's just something that, like I blah, blah, blah, need this and here's how I'm going to to give this to you, or try to, yeah.
Speaker 1:so it's like uh, with trying to, you're trying to communicate so that the other person understands your thought or your feeling or your idea or just who you are. And so it's like how can I, how can I communicate in the most thorough way and cover all my bases? So we're going to incorporate all the words. So I need you to understand me. So let me keep using words and keep explaining so you get it. But then also I'm going to express myself in all these other ways too, because maybe, if you don't hear my words, maybe you'll like get my song or you'll like get my art.
Speaker 2:Yes, a hundred percent. How many ways can I communicate the same thing to you? Because I don't want to be misunderstood. So if you didn't understand me the first time and maybe you did, but I feel that you don't, yes, regardless of what your body language is, regardless of like the words you're saying back to me, there's just this innate desire to get the point across in such a way, and that's the detriment to fours. And that's why, if you're a four, wing five, as I identify like, you have a certain amount of energy and and sometimes you kind of use all of that energy trying to explain yourself and to get your point across so much that it kind of like drains you.
Speaker 2:And that's the contention right of how do I learn to grow up in a space, in a family, in a world where, yes, I have a lot of words, yes, I have a lot of expression, emotion, how am I able to show up in a way that's still authentic to me, without having to give everything?
Speaker 2:Because that's the trick of growing up as a four is you also realize as you grow up that you don't have to use every tool in your tool belt to explain everything. As a kid I did because I didn't have language, as I know now more of the Enneagram of like I can just show up, I can just be me, I can just say what I want to say and not have to have fireworks after every monologue to like really drive it home. That'd be great, though it hasn't happened yet. But sometimes less is more, and I think, growing up as a young female four I thought more was more and even more was more, and you really have to learn that balance of less is more and you're still getting your point across and you're still being yourself. But you don't have to exhaust yourself to let others understand you, and that's something I've had to learn over the years.
Speaker 1:I have a couple of fours in my life who will tell a story about something that happened to them that day, and it's a production Like it's not just stating the simple facts of what happened, it's it's all the extra confetti and the fireworks, and this is what they might have been thinking, and this is what I was thinking, and here's what we did. And can you believe that? Right? So it's like adding and adding, and I'm just like picturing you with a fireworks going off after you finish your monologue, and that's very funny.
Speaker 2:I wish, I wish, I wish it would have happened this whole time. That would have been very expensive and no one has time for that. So it just happened. But, yes, there is a theatricality to fours of man. We can tell a really good story and we're going to act out all the characters and we're going to give everybody a backstory. Yes, and you best better believe it's going to be a movie production by the time we're done, and not all of us go to that extreme. But that is just how we communicate, like we want to communicate with different shapes and colors and textures, and pretty much we'll give you everything we got.
Speaker 1:That's so awesome. Wow, really really good description of communication, and not only the outer behavior of how does a fork communicate, because we're not about behaviors here in the Enneagram world, we're about what's driving the behavior. So you went to what's the desire to be unique, to be understood? Right, that desire to be understood really produces a lot of the big communication.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about the heart triad. So in the Enneagram we've got three numbers who are in the head triad, which means they lead with thinking. We have three numbers who are in the gut triad, so they lead with their gut instincts. And then we have three numbers who are in the heart triad, so they lead with feelings. So twos, threes and fours are in the heart triad and I'm going to kind of leave this open-ended. What's it like for you to be in the heart triad?
Speaker 2:It's difficult. Thank you for asking.
Speaker 1:You're welcome Next question Okay.
Speaker 2:I like what you mentioned earlier in terms of dividing the Enneagram into three groups. I feel from my I think and I also feel in my gut, but I'm more responsive to my feelings first. I think that was. I love how you worded that, because yes and I don't. Suzanne Stabile has said this before about fours and she is 110% correct, where fours will feel a feeling but then they will think they're feeling away.
Speaker 2:Oh no, Say more about that I would love to say more. This actually came to me when I was interviewing my life coach last year on the podcast and in real time I was like holy moly, let me back up a second. So all of the feelings that fours feel some of it is in the moment but like the bigger, deeper ones are from things in the past, because we thought it away we're like I will deal with this later, this is too big, I don't want to sit with it or I don't know how to sit with it, and so I'm just going to go about my life, feeling remorse for not dealing with those feelings, but then also feeling a whole bunch of other things because, like, what I'm going through now is feelings that I haven't yet worked through in like a big picture kind of way. So she was 100% correct, suzanne, when she was like fours will feel and then they'll think it away. Why do we do that? Great question. I think it's just something that we do.
Speaker 2:I wonder if it is being so close to fives that we think you know what? I need more knowledge about my feeling. I need to like explore it in a head space kind of way. So that's where the thinking comes in and then we're connected to threes. Threes are the efficient, most efficient type on the Enneagram, and so they will view feelings as not efficient.
Speaker 2:I need to do something productive. I need to spin this feeling into a task, to like check it off my list so that I feel productive, so that I'm not falling behind, so that I am accomplishing what I need to do. And so fours are in this weird space of they're either going to think their feelings away or they're going to try to do something about it, because in each of the triads you're going to have one type that's going to run towards that feeling, you're going to have one type that runs away from that feeling and you're going to have one type that's neutral about it. So in the heart triad, threes are going to be neutral about feelings because they're so efficient. They don't need to have feelings, because they're just productive as crap and they have mile-long to-do lists that they can get done in five minutes, right.
Speaker 1:Or that's just how it feels for me, because feelings are not efficient.
Speaker 2:Right. Feelings are not efficient. It's okay to have them, but if they deter me from something then that's not a good thing. So twos will kind of run away a little bit from that feeling because it's getting in the way of them being of service to others and they're like this is taking away too much time and making it feel like I'm selfish for wanting to have these feelings and sit with them. So I'm just not going to run towards them.
Speaker 2:And for fours, because we are so deep, I kind of describe fours as like the ocean, right there's the surface of the water and then, like you know, you can go 20,000 leagues under that sea and like we can occupy those deep spaces where everybody has feelings, everyone has hard emotions, we're all human, we all go through various things where we experience fear and anger and confusion and grief and sorrow and joy and all of the things. Fours are the ones that can sit in those uncomfortable spaces the longest, and with I don't like this phrase but with the most ease, in the sense that it's not as hard for us to sit somewhere as it would be a seven, as it would be a three, as it would be a six kind of thing. Um, so then with that is okay if fours run to feelings, yet they also try to think them away. There's just this contention of there's a lot of stuff going on, and there is. It's kind of like the tornado hasn't left kansas to go to oz, it's just still whirling around.
Speaker 1:Like.
Speaker 2:Dorothy's still stuck in there you know what I mean Like we got to get her out, kind of thing. So it's a very contentious thing for fours because we're feeling and we're trying to think them away and we want to sit with them, but we also kind of don't want to all the time, either right, because no one wants to sit and feel bad all the time, or feel sorry all the time. We can do that the easiest if we allow ourselves to, because we have the biggest capacity of all the types to do that. But we also are in this contention of and we just don't want to.
Speaker 2:You know, so, kind of like the cyclone, there is a lot happening on the inside of feelings how to feel them? Do you process them now or do you save them for a rainy day? And then, if you save them for a rainy day, how much time goes before you actually start dealing with that? And so it's this constant thing of like I have fresh emotions and then I have emotions from like two months ago, two years ago, 20 years ago, and kind of, what do you do? Because there's just a large ball of feeling, and how do you? How do you attack?
Speaker 1:it and you're describing a very like the awareness of feelings is right there, right at the surface, like regardless of whether you're going to process of feelings, is right there, right at the surface, like regardless of whether you're going to process the feelings now or not. You're describing four as being very aware of the feelings and many other numbers, in a very unconscious way, will get their feelings off to the side before it even hits their awareness. Right Like I'm going to push the feelings away and not even see them. I don't feel them at all. So it's really interesting how you're describing like yeah, you kind of have to make a decision about what do I do with these feelings, but hey, I know, I definitely know they're here. Like I can, I'm very aware of them.
Speaker 2:Yes, and sometimes, like you can't process them in the moment, right, like if you're at work and someone said something to you or the presentation didn't go so well or the whatever you know. It's like, hey, I have feelings about being hurt by someone, something that was said, I feel disappointment by not getting that promotion, I feel blah because I put all this work into an event and like I didn't receive maybe the recognition that I wanted to, because I thought I was presenting something into the world that was really unique and no one kind of caught the vision right. No one saw it as I wanted it to be presented, and so you'll have resentment or whatever feeling along with that, and so you can recognize that in the moment. And sometimes you're like I still have the rest of my workday to do. I can't just like, sit here and cry about it.
Speaker 2:Maybe you should Absolutely you should Feel it in the moment and feel it for all it's worth, but then like, just don't kind of let it sit and ruminate, and that's what all of our types can do, right, we can just sit and ruminate and fester without really working on it. How did it make me feel? Why does it make me feel this way. How can I let this feeling now leave my body, knowing that it's been worked through and I don't have to carry it around? That's kind of where that growth comes from. It's like I have all these feelings. What do I do with them? That's the bridge between an unhealthy four and a healthy four knowing what to do with the emotions when.
Speaker 1:Beautiful. So let me ask you this. Let's say something like that happens You're at work, your feelings are hurt and it's not an appropriate time to process that. Let's say you go home or you go out with a friend and now you have an opportunity to talk about it and like tell a story of something that happened at work. Is that something that can help you process the feelings? Like telling what happened in story form to somebody else?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I am a big external processor and so I love therapy. For that very reason. I love talking to friends and family about it. For that very reason. Not every story is theatrical on like a 20 out of 10 way. Some are and some aren't, but there's just a lot of language around like I feel this and I don't know what to do. Or I feel this and I do know what to do. So having people around for us that we can process with is super important.
Speaker 2:I'm also a big journaler, so I will write in my journal and if my journal is not at work with me, I will do a phone message to myself, I will just make a note, or sometimes I will try to find an inspirational quote, or I will find like a picture on Pinterest, or I will find a song that can really help me process what it is I'm going through.
Speaker 2:But really for me, the baseline is like let me talk about it with somebody else so it doesn't sit in my brain and fester and kind of like you know how, like when you leave, when you leave like trash, not in a bag outside, like there's a stink, there's an odor it gets nasty real quick.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's how it is for every type, right Like we need to be able to have a place to talk and express ourselves. But I think for fours, having that one person or multiple, depending on how you share is so important so that it gets processed in real time, because that's the danger of just letting something sit with you and then not really working on it and then feeling inadequate and not enough because you didn't stand up for yourself, because maybe you didn't know how to. But if you're at work and you have a second, go to your car or go to a closet and cry, just get it out. That's another great way to just process. Even if you're not verbally communicating how it made you feel, you can still have a physical reaction and that's okay too.
Speaker 1:More than okay. Really good advice about processing feelings. Okay, we're going to talk about relationships now. What are some of your top values in relationships and if you could tie those together, how do you think your relationship values connect with your Enneagram type?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. I value authenticity so much in my relationships. I think as humans, we appreciate what we put out in the world coming back to us, and so I show up every single day as myself because I don't know what else to do. I don't know who else to be. Years ago, I used to try to be somebody else all the time and let me tell you, it was exhausting because I didn't know who that person was. I'm spending all this energy trying to make people like me a different version of myself. That's completely untrue to who I am. So I've just spent many years tired, I'll tell you that.
Speaker 2:But fours also have this very unique quality, and this can be in any relationship, whether platonic, familial or sexual, romantic where there's this space that we create that people feel comfortable to show up as themselves. And in a world where we are constantly on the hustle, we're constantly on the grind, we're putting our highlight reels on Instagram, we're dancing to videos on TikTok just to create a sense of happiness and contentment and joy. And, yes, we might be experiencing those things as we're showing up on social media, but sometimes that does feel like a performance and it doesn't feel super true to who we might be in that moment, and so authenticity comes in line with that desire of wanting to be unique. What's super unique to me is if someone can sit with me, open up, and they say I have never shared that with anybody else, because I feel so comfortable with you, I could say something the best feeling ever. And so just letting people know that it's also okay to be themselves, that's a really great encouragement that force could do of like hey, just show up, man, like the world needs you. You're the only one that is you, so just do it. So authenticity is really important to me.
Speaker 2:And creativity we're all creative. Some have an easier time of doing that than others and sometimes creativity looks different. For example, going back to that list analogy ones can make a list and follow it from top to bottom and there's a certain order and through trial and error, they know the right way to make this list, whether they're grocery shopping or running errands. I'm going to make this a good productive trip, because if I do something wrong or I get caught doing something like, I'm going to feel bad about man. I should have gone to that place first. I know it's right by here. I can quickly catch the highway and go to this other place. You know what I mean. So, like they've mapped it out and like they kind of know this is the way it goes and I know how it is right.
Speaker 2:That is a form of creativity, of like I know how to structure my day or an event or grocery shopping in such a way where I can do it and get it done. Like my mom, for example, growing up, grocery shopping, we would always go to the back of the store and work our way from back to front. She would put her certain items on the conveyor cart to be scanned and she would put the bags in a certain way in the cart to create efficiency. Because why would you put cans on the top on your eggs when it needs to be the opposite, right?
Speaker 2:So me, I show up to the store and I go through all the aisles in a maze kind of way, or I like skip five aisles, forget I needed to go to aisle 15 and then make my way from aisle two to aisle 15, right? So I'm just all over the map sometimes, and so having people be creative, how creativity shows up for them, is really exciting to me and something that I value in any relationship that I am in, it doesn't have to look like mine. Most likely it won't. That is okay. So there's the freedom to show up as myself. There's also the freedom, through authenticity, that I invite you to also show up as yourself and then just be creative however that looks like to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love how you're talking about how fours can create the space, because, because of what you genuinely want as a four is the space for you to be able to show up as your authentic self, and so that's the gift you give to others that people can can talk about whatever they're going through or their feelings, and then with feelings. I think this is also really important. You mentioned this earlier, but anybody can come with whatever feelings they have to you and you won't try to change it or just cheer up, buddy Right, it's like you can bring your authentic feelings. You can bring the grief, the pain, the sorrow, and I love this about fours is that we can trust them to honor what our feelings are right now without feeling that need that a lot of the other types do to try to change it or make it better or make you happy.
Speaker 2:And none of those other reactions are bad. It's just in those moments of deep emotions that maybe some types find it hard to acknowledge that they're in a state of grief or they're angry about something or whatever. It is just nice to be validated in your feelings without coming up with a solution, and that's not a bad thing to come up with a solution. But I think the first solution sometimes is just having a space where I can be heard, that someone can validate wow, you went through something really big or something really big happened to you and the whole way it happened and that was a lot, or you did the best you could, or that sucks and I'm sorry that happened to you. Whatever it might be, just validating is enough for that moment. And then, as days, weeks, time goes on, if it needs to be something that's solved in a much more logical way, then there's space to do that. But just saying that like, hey, talk to me about what it is. There is no judgment, there is no shame, just talk and I will give you a great big old hug and I will cry with you if that needs to happen, and then we can go get ice cream together because we've done the hard work of talking about hard things, and we can celebrate the fact that you recognized your emotions and felt so strongly to share them.
Speaker 2:And that's an important thing too, because with all the emotions we have as humans that we go through each and every day, we need to be able to have safe spaces to share them.
Speaker 2:And it's not a thing of like, yeah, you shared, I reward you, but just like, hey, I see you and you did really hard work for it, not being like that was not an easy thing for you to do.
Speaker 2:Good job, like I see you in that and that's really important to encourage that in others, regardless of your type. But fours, specifically, it's an honor for us if you share anything and we will not betray that. We will keep that sacred, because big emotions are big for a reason and processing them takes time, and sometimes forests don't even have language for processing things. That's why there's songs, there's art, there's dance, there's other things that we can kind of use and all types can, but maybe it's not that we're better at it and I hate to say that word it's just like we're more quick to use other tools in the toolbox and so we have other ways to help us express that maybe some types are not as willing or conscious of. Hey, you can use this too, so that's also another good thing of like we're all doing this together, but just encouragement and having safe places to share is the biggest thing encouragement and having safe places to share is the biggest thing.
Speaker 1:As a solutions focused person, I appreciate that you are actually framing the validation of the feelings as part of the solution. This is actually helping us take a couple steps forward. Yeah, absolutely Okay. Michaela, I'm going to read some nicknamesames nicknames for the Enneagram 4 that I have gathered from around the internet and Enneagram books and I just want to know which one you like the most. Okay, let's do it. Here are the nicknames the creative, the artist, the individual or individualist, the tragic, romantic.
Speaker 2:Okay, so personally the tragic romantic like speaks to my soul in such a way where I do read too many like period novels of like romances. So like that's me. I like the artist, I like the creative, but part of me feels like those are limiting. So I like the individualist, the individual that in itself kind of encompasses all the others, because sometimes fours don't well, I don't want to say they don't feel creative, but like it's more about being individual and like set apart and artist and creative kind of falls under that. So that's what I would say Tragic, romantic for me, always me, always, forever and a day.
Speaker 1:But I think the individualist is like a very true, concise way to describe us yeah, if one of the nicknames was gonna have fireworks behind it, it would definitely be tragic, romantic yes, because like you just picture like a romeo and juliet situation, like someone drank the poison, someone stabbed themselves and we're all just crying.
Speaker 2:Do you know what I mean? Like? And it's just a tragic, romantic kind of like whole thing.
Speaker 1:Yes, not everything can't get enough of it.
Speaker 2:I just have to say that not everything is that final um, but yeah, there's just a romanticism about anything because we can forest, can spin everything to be like, wow, that's romantic. Like a sunrise is romantic, a sunset's romantic, fireworks are romantic. Like there's so many things, because Forrest have this unique ability to to see beauty and pain at the same time. And so that's the constant world right Of we're in reality, where stuff sucks and it's not like our fantasies are rainbows and sunshine either, but there is the ability to see beauty and broken, and we can hold space for both and just be very theatrical about all of it.
Speaker 1:So that's a way to sum that up sum that up, the last thing we're going to do on this episode is I'm going to read from a list from the book excuse me, the book the Road Back to you by Ian Cron Love, that book.
Speaker 2:for anyone who has not, or is thinking about it, had it in their Amazon cart and haven't done anything with it, please get it. Do yourself a favor. It's one of the best books and it's a very easy one to get into too. It's not one of those things that like kind of gives you theory, or very like scientific textbook. Yeah, it's a beautiful, beautiful read.
Speaker 1:He tells a lot of stories.
Speaker 2:I think that's one reason it's easy to get into. It's relatable ian's a four, so I relate, we see each other a great enneagram book written by an enneagram four.
Speaker 1:So there's a list with uh, in every chapter about every type. There's a list and it says you might be a type four if blank. And then he gives these 20 things. I'm just going to read 10 of them. So if you want the other 10, you gotta go get the book.
Speaker 1:So here's the 10, the list of 10 things what it's like to be a 4. Here's, and then you could just tell me what are a couple of your faves from the list. Yeah, yeah, go for it. Okay. Number one I like things that are unconventional, dramatic and refined. I am definitely not a fan of the ordinary. Two I never really felt like I belonged. Three I have so many feelings in a day it is hard to know which ones to pay attention to first. Four Some people think I am aloof, but I'm really just unique. Five In social situations, I tend to hang back and wait for others to approach me. Six Melancholy is comfortable for me, so it's annoying when people try to cheer me up. Seven I'm not like everyone else. Few, yeah, it really says the word for you. Eight I'm very sensitive to criticism and it takes me a while to get over it. Nine I spend a lot of time trying to explain myself.
Speaker 2:And ten when people tell me what to do, I'm often tempted to do the opposite. Yeah, it's tens across the board. For all of those, the one that is actually it sticks out to me so strongly is the melancholy is comfortable for me. It's annoying when people try to cheer me up, boy. Yeah, don't cheer me up Like you can tell me it's going to be okay.
Speaker 2:I gave myself this role, so I gave myself the 24 hour role. I don't know if that's healthy, I don't know if that's scientifically what you should do, but it works for me. So back in college I majored in theater and so I just did a ton of auditions and sang songs and tried to book roles and talk about theatrical and storytelling. That was my thing, and so anytime that I audition, have a callback and like not get the part I wanted. I gave myself a full 24 hours to feel my feelings. I looked down the road three months into the future and I saw what rehearsals would look like. I saw what music rehearsals and choreography and blocking sessions would look like. Just knowing what the role of the show was. You kind of had an idea, and then I would grieve opening night because I knew the next three months of my life were not going to look the same because I didn't get that part. So 24 hours feel sad, feel bad, feel mad feel angry feel sorrow, feel disappointment, feel all of the things.
Speaker 2:Now, after 24 hours, does that feeling like magically go away? And I've never dealt with it before? No, but I just took time like all of my free thoughts that next day. Man, I wish it could have been different. I understand I didn't sing that part exactly right. So I'm not going to like completely shame myself, but like maybe if I did better it would have gotten different. Who knows, who knows? But my 24-hour rule is feel the feels. Do I do that so well in other areas of my life? No, I am trying. I will say that.
Speaker 2:So don't tell me to cheer up, don't tell me things are going to be okay, because in those moments I'm the tragic romantic and I think woe is me. Everyone's out to get me, kind of thing, and that's the language. The language is sometimes theatrical and sometimes it is like an Anne of Green Gables situation where the imagination is running so wild like don't take me away from it. So I reckon I resonate with that one wholeheartedly. And yeah, all of the other ones are pretty much what I have shared. Yeah, I'm not like everybody else few Few. Yeah, there's something really nice about that, like people are great, but there is just something about wanting to stand out that is just like. Yes speaks to me.
Speaker 2:And then the last one you had mentioned when people tell me what to do, I'm often tempted to do the opposite, and this is kind of the difference between ones and fours. We talked about that when you were on my show last year. Of like, if you give a template and a framework to type ones, say, this top section, fill it out. This way, if we're kind of like making a graphic or something, and here's the colors you can use, if you are told ahead of time what to do, what to use, how to use it, you go nuts, like you just run your best race and you're comfortable in those parameters of like this is good.
Speaker 2:I can make a really good, perfect workout of this when I know If you gave me the same thing, I'll be like meh, okay, I know you gave me like this color green.
Speaker 2:I would much prefer like a sage green over like an army green and just kind of like I want to change this font and I want to add some like curly Qs around this document and I want to do this, that and the other.
Speaker 2:So we're okay with parameters as fours, but sometimes we don't always feel the safest there, because sometimes it feels like that box is trying to make us like everybody else. So in that sense we want to kind of push those boundaries and do something a little bit different, to put our unique stamp on it so that the work doesn't look like everybody else's and it could be the same like Google Doc. You know what I mean, but there is just some kind of spin that we will add to it to just make it not so black and white, where for other types the black and white is very comfortable and none of them are bad. One of them is very safe with that structure and the other one is like I like the structure, but on my terms, and so I want to flip that and create it in a different way.
Speaker 1:One of my favorite TV shows of all time, project Runway. Yes, you've watched Project Runway, I've seen a few episodes. Yeah, it's just so awesome. It's just a bunch of designers. One gets eliminated every episode and they're trying to make the best outfits and typically they will be given a challenge with the structure and the parameters and they have to follow and make something. Oh and, by the way, like I mean, half of the cast every year has to be enneagram fours, like there's so many enneagram fours on this show. You can just tell they're so they're. It's like. It's like all the things that you've described in this episode about what it's like for you to communicate.
Speaker 1:It's like a dozen people all with that like trying to get along with each other oh, it's a good time so then every once in a while they'll do an episode where the judges say okay, this challenge is you get to make whatever you want, and everybody goes nuts. Everybody's so excited I get to make whatever I want, there's no parameters, I can do anything, I can do my signature, and that's just what I thought of when you described that.
Speaker 2:That's perfect. Yeah, exactly Exactly that, that's it, michaela.
Speaker 1:This has been delightful. I love having fours on the podcast because you're just so epic at describing what's going on inside you, and I think this episode is really going to paint a really great picture of what is an Enneagram four.
Speaker 2:I love painting pictures, so that's awesome. Thank you for having me. This is so fun, so so.
Speaker 1:Yay, I want to give you time to share a little bit about your podcast, and if people want to connect with you more, where can they go?
Speaker 2:Fabulous. So the podcast is your Story Matters with Michaela Elizabeth. It is exactly that. We talk about stories. So parts of it is Enneagram, Parts of it is just talking with other people about stories in their lives, how they have risen from a particular thing and change the narrative. Right, Because there's so much of life we cannot control. But we can kind of control the chapters in our story to the degree that we can right. There's always things that we can't foresee happening, but it's really much how we react to them. And then just the personal growth of getting from point A to point B and realizing wow, I went through that, I conquered that, here's what I learned and here's how it has changed me. So that's kind of the whole point of the podcast, and so you can find that anywhere that you listen to podcasts. My website is MichaelaElizabethcom and then on Instagram I am Michaela Elizabeth Coach and that is where you can find me. Thank you so much, Michaela.
Speaker 1:Elizabeth Coach, and that is where you can find me.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, michaela.
Speaker 1:Thank you, elise, this was wonderful Over and out.
