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Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast
Welcome to Towards Eden Enneagram, a show where we dissect our Enneagram types so we can understand ourselves and have way better relationships.
The Enneagram is a tool that illuminates our motivations, our blind spots, and the differences between myself and others.
We can use it to see ourselves more clearly and to get healthier.
The Enneagram isn’t about what we do. It’s about WHY we do what we do.
Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast
#36 - Enneagram 101: What is an Enneagram 9? with Timmy Miller
Timmy Miller guides us to learn about Enneagram Nines!
Type 9 is known as “The Peacekeeper” or “The Accomodater.” Nines seek peace and harmony within themselves, their environment, and the groups of people around them.
Timmy discusses the Type Nine desire for connection and harmony, as well as their value on hearing other peoples' perspectives. Nines fear conflict because it may cause disconnection; they prefer to go along with others instead of rocking the boat.
We also learn about the Gut Triad and how Nines have trouble listening to their own gut instincts.
Timmy Miller is an HR Director in Northwest Indiana.
He and his wife Ariel (Type 2) were on Episode #1 of this podcast.
Grab the Enneagram Guide for your type at work for $1! Enter code 'HIELYSE' at checkout.
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The Enneagram is a tool that illuminates our motivations and our blind spots and the differences between ourselves and others. This is the last episode in this series, which explores the question: what is the Enneagram? That is the title of the very first episode in the series. That gives a context and overview of the whole Enneagram. And then we've got episodes for every type ending with this today episode about type 9. Here's the most important thing to know about the Enneagram. The Enneagram isn't about what we do, it's about why we do what we do. So here's what Ian Cron and Suzanne Stabil have to say about Enneagram Nines. Pleasant, laid back, and accommodating. They are motivated by a need to keep the peace, merge with others, and avoid conflict. Nines are in the gut triad, and they have an emotional struggle with anger. They forget their anger and repress it as much as they can. As a gut triad type, they take in and respond to life instinctually or at the gut level. And now it's time to learn all about nines from my conversation with Timmy Miller. My type 9 guest is Timmy Miller. Here's a fun fact about my type 9 guest, Timmy Miller, is we play on a co-ed recreational soccer team together. So really happy to play soccer with you this week and to talk about the NE Gram with you today.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Let's win the league. Can't wait for tournament day. That's right.
SPEAKER_03:If you've listened to past episodes, you might remember Timmy and his wife Ariel did a podcast pretty early on. His wife Ariel is a two. So we had a conversation about their relationship and the two nine pairing, and it was lovely. And so I'm really happy to have Timmy back to talk all about nines.
SPEAKER_00:I am pumped to be here. Thanks for having me back.
SPEAKER_03:Timmy Miller, where in the world are you? And what do you do in life?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Uh so right now, my wife Ariel and I are living in northwest Indiana, Valparaiso. Um, and we've been here for the last few years after being in the Chicagoland area suburbs for about five years. And right now I am doing HR for a Chick-fil-A in the area.
SPEAKER_00:So one of the things I love about my job is I get to talk to a lot of young people and interview a lot of young people, which you never know what you're gonna get, which is very entertaining and keeps things interesting um each and every day.
SPEAKER_03:Does it feel uh weird to be on the receiving end of the interview today?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes. I if I start asking you countless questions, just yell cut and we'll try again.
SPEAKER_03:You can ask about my past work experience.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, that's right.
SPEAKER_03:What qualifies me to make this podcast?
SPEAKER_00:That's right. Former coworkers and also current sport teammates, soccer teammates.
SPEAKER_03:Sport teammates is probably the most important, the most important connection you could have with a person.
SPEAKER_00:Agreed, agreed.
SPEAKER_03:So anygram nines are called the peacekeepers. And I'm gonna read a little bit about Enniegram Nines, and then we're gonna hear Timmy's story about how he found himself in the type of nine. So nine's the peacekeepers. They have a core fear of uh being in conflict or tension and of losing connection with others. So for anygram nines real really the root of it is about losing connection with others. So the reason that they would fear conflict and tension is because that could lead to disconnection. So disconnection is um one of the really root fears here, and then the core desires of any gram nine are to have inner stability and peace of mind, and then also external peace and harmony with others. So it's about feeling that um peace and wholeness and stability and harmony inside and outside. And nines are part of the gut triad, so along with eights and ones, nines lead with their gut instincts. We'll talk a lot more about that later, about how um the gut triad plays out for Enneagram Nines. But for now, let's hear from Timmy. How did you find yourself at nine? How did you uh come to the Enneagram in the first place?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. So um graduated from college, Taylor University in 2015, and at that point I had heard of the Enneagram, but I it wasn't necessarily um the way that it is in the universe right now and so popular to the point where like if you haven't heard of the Enneagram, it's like, come on.
SPEAKER_03:Come on.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So at that point, I think it was more like Myers Briggs, uh Strength Finder, some of those were were a little bit more popular. So graduated without a ton of knowledge, and then as life transitions uh will do to you, you kind of look for resources or ways to make sense of life. And I got a hold of The Road Back to You by Ian Cron. And I think that came out in 2016. I have the book right here. Uh yeah, 2016. I got the book right in front of me.
SPEAKER_02:It does.
SPEAKER_01:The book is here in the studio. And so I think I don't know if I just like walked into a Barnes and Noble or Amazon came and found me or what, but I I yeah, I got the book like right when it came out and read it on maybe like a vacation trip somewhere. And just immediately, I think uh the nine, I know so many books go through like starting with eight and then the nine. And so I was the second chapter and I went back through the book, and I don't know if you're this the same way, but I like you know, do little stars, underlines, and things like that. Mark it up. And there's literally just stars all down the pages of the nine. Oh my goodness. So clearly I kind of was putting the the pieces together of like, oh yes, this is all connecting. And so I just remember immediately feeling seen and understood in a way that I had never felt. And for me, it felt it was an interesting balance of feeling affirmed, but then also um a little bit of like shame or just being like, oh my goodness, like this this feels really heavy and weighty, and I almost feeling like exposed or seen and like, oh wow, this is this is a lot. So for me, that was kind of my journey. And then um kind of started, you know, you kind of become an a uh an Enneagram uh apologist or spreading the gospel of the Enneagram, and so kind of started talking to friends and family, and at that point most people were unaware of it.
SPEAKER_03:So Yeah, one of the original Enneagram evangelists.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Any doubts about nine?
SPEAKER_01:Um I think for me, and I think this is uncommon. I just for me, I was just like, oh, yep, that's it. That that is for sure it. And I kept reading the book, but I was just like, I got to the end of that chapter and I was like, yeah, that's there's too many connections. Um, there's too many just light bulb moments. You know, you run into things at times and you're like, you have a light bulb moment. For me, it was like I had a handful of light bulbs throughout that chapter. So I think for me, um obviously we if if you want me to get into like more of the specifics, I I can, or if you want me to do that later, we can as well. But yeah, for me, there was just so many of those moments that I was like, it has to be it.
SPEAKER_03:So okay, this is uh episode nine. I have not um edited all these episodes yet at the time of recording. It is June 27th, 2025. But I'm assuming, because of my desire for orderliness, that I will be putting these in order. So this will be the last one. Um so by now people would know that we at the end of the episode we read from this little list from this book that Timmy's talking about, The Road Back to You. And the list says what it's like to be a nine. So just for fun, because you say you could share more, um, why don't you go to that list and pick out one or two um items that you related to, like that you can even remember from the beginning. And again, this is in the book The Road Back to You by Ian Cron. And there's a list in every chapter that says what it's like to be a type blank.
SPEAKER_01:All right. So there's 20. I won't, I won't, I won't read through all of them, but I'll kind of scan through here and uh read the ones that really um feel feel right. So right off the bat, it's I'll do almost anything to avoid conflict check. I would also add to that that not only uh avoid, but I'm just very sensitive to conflict, to the point where sometimes people will be like, uh what what conflict? And I'm like, oh, you're not sensing that. So sometimes it's even to the point where I'm just like, I'm very sensitive, or even will manifest something that's not even really a conflict. But avoid in is also correct on that on that front. Not a self-starter. Uh yeah, I I think that that one would be like a half star. Um, I I could see it. But um for me, I think I'm not a great initiator. So for me, it's more um I'm good at collaborating and reflecting, but maybe not gonna be a disruptor or initiator in that. We also have happy to go along with what others want to do. Yes, tend to procrastinate. For me, it's I avoid the one thing that I should be doing. Uh-huh. And then I will find other things that all of a sudden uh seem very important when they are not important. Uh others see me as more peaceful than I really am. I think that's a good one. You talked about in your intro the the difference between inward peace and outward peace. And so sometimes people will be like, wow, you just seem so peaceful. And I'm like, oh, they can't see the thoughts that are running through my head. So that makes a lot of sense. That's very interesting. Inwardly, I'm holding that that tension or the lack of peace or trying to make peace within myself. Let's see here. I'm scanning towards the bottom ones here. Sometimes I tune out and think about the past. Oh. That's a really good one. I think that one I I realized there's a lot of times where I'm thinking I get caught up in past conversations, past memories, past things that um I'm thinking about rather than being in the present or thinking about what I I should be about to be doing.
SPEAKER_03:Uh, question about that one. When it comes to things that happened in the past that are related to conflict, are you more likely to think more about those things or to like tune those things out and not reflect on like past conflicts?
SPEAKER_01:It's a good question. I think that I think there's almost a little bit of both going on where it's unpleasant and um I'd rather not think about that. So it's like pretending like it didn't happen, but at the same time it happened. And sometimes I will be like, it's always the question between speaking out and not speaking out. So if I didn't speak out, there's that I'm holding inner conflict and I'm like, I probably should have spoken out and entered in the conflict. But if I did speak out, then sometimes there's regret if a conflict happened and it feels unresolved. So in that sense, yeah, you're just like darned if you do, darned if you don't.
SPEAKER_03:You feel like there's a trade-off between like choosing your inner peace or choosing outer harmony.
SPEAKER_01:100%, yes. So that's a that's a tough balance. And then I think it tires you out, and that's kind of another one. Um, I don't know if it's one of the 20 here, but uh nines can classically uh have the least amount of energy of the Enneagram bunch. Uh being outdoors is very soothing for me. I do, I do love the the great outdoors. I'm often quietly stubborn when people put demands on me. That one maybe didn't initially hit for me, but upon further reflection, um later on my wife was like, oh yes, you are very stubborn or slash passive aggressive. Um you're just kind of a secret agent about it. Like and so that's one that I have to admit, because I'm like, I don't I don't no, I don't want to be seen as that. Like I'm not I'm not stubborn, I'm not passive aggressive.
SPEAKER_03:Can you think of like a a lighthearted, non-serious example of that? Um secret agent. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know if this is would be like a specific example, but I I know that I will oftentimes nod and say yes. Um like very affirmative uh verbals and nonverbals, but that just means I understand what you're saying, not I agree with what you're saying.
SPEAKER_03:That's really good.
SPEAKER_01:And like that is one of those I have had to watch because for many people, that's like you, oh, you agree with what I'm saying. And even like with my wife, it's like, oh yeah, so we're gonna do that. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. I just I understand what you're saying. Understanding is very important to me. But that does not necessarily mean I agree that like, yes, we should do that. And so that has been uh that has been a point of of uh either tension or just uh things that we've had to talk about and be like, oh, okay, we we gotta make sure that we understand we're on the same page here.
SPEAKER_03:For nines, one of nine's great gifts is that they're really good at seeing a lot of different perspectives, right? They can see things from other people's point of view. So I think this example is funny because you're like, yes, I'm I'm affirming you with my verbals and my nonverbals because I can see your point of view. But you could say that to everybody on five different sides of uh an argument, and you could be nodding to all of them, saying, Yeah, I understand all these five points of view. You're not saying you agree with all five.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Yeah, I remember I had a teacher in eighth grade that commented he really liked having me in class because I would nod with what he was saying. Like I would just be like constantly nodding because I he was one of my favorite teachers. Eighth grade. And he was like, Yeah, I really you just you give me great peace because I feel like I'm I'm sharing things that have worth and not just you know rambling on about nothing.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, that is awesome. An eighth grade story. All right, you have any other ones from this list?
SPEAKER_01:Let's see. I think we've gotten through most of them there. Um, let me see here. Don't enjoy big social gatherings as much as quiet evening at home. My wife and I talk about, she calls it um introvert, my introvert time. And I do love to hang out with friends, but I find that like if we get through the week and I don't have any time to myself, like not good. Not good for me. So I need a little bit of time just to like be on my own, recharge, um, recharge the the energy meter, or I'm just gonna be drained and not not have enough energy to to meet the next week.
SPEAKER_03:Do you get grumpy when you're drained?
SPEAKER_01:I think so. I think it's either grumpy or just like quiet. And um sometimes it is I will go somewhere when my wife and I are in conversation or just like at home and she's like, Wait, where'd you go?
SPEAKER_03:You physically leave the room.
SPEAKER_01:Well, either physically or like I leave like I'm uh making eye contact with her, but she can tell that I went somewhere and I'm not focused on what she's saying. And so I think that is kind of the avoidance of the Enneagram 9. And it's not just conflict, sometimes it's like reality and what is actually happening right now. And I tend to do that, I think, when I'm tired or I haven't had that chance to recharge. So sometimes it's just like we've had to talk about like, hey, I just need like when I get home, I need like 15 minutes. And I just need to communicate, like, hey, that's my introvert time. Once I come back from that, like we're good and I'll be here fully. Um, but if not, I'm like half there, and that's not that's not good for us. That's not good for me or her.
SPEAKER_03:So thanks. That was a lot of good examples, good stories. Yeah, I think you're doing a really good job explaining about like this theme of of peace and stability is just like coming out throughout um this conversation. Um okay, I'm gonna go back to the core desire. Um, we we have been talking about this a lot, but I'll see if you have anything to add. So the core desire of the nine is this inner stability and peace of mind along with the external peace and harmony with others. So what comes to mind for you and your experience about that?
SPEAKER_01:I think the core desire, I I've always struggled a bit with Enneagram Nine because I think I alluded to this earlier, but I just I don't feel at peace. And so oftentimes, you know, if you're sitting in a circle doing affirmations or, you know, parts of life where uh people say nice things about you, that's typically a common thing of just like, wow, you're very measured or you're peaceful or you make me feel reassured. But I don't always feel self-assured myself. On the inside. And I don't always feel like I provide confidence and have self-confidence. Um, or maybe there's a lot of tension going on in my thought life. And so uh that one's tough because it's just like, yeah, if I provide that to others, but I'm not providing that to myself or feel that tension, is that really true about me? And so I uh I identify with that, with that core desire, but it is one of those that feels not necessarily at rest. It feels like intention at all times. So so that's that's a challenge.
SPEAKER_03:Are you able to um because I've heard this from other nines? Are you able to like filter what is coming into your mind? Like, for example, somebody says something that could really bother you, but you choose to like let it roll off your back. Like, are you able to choose to kind of let let things go in order to not, I don't know, like not get angry or not get upset about things?
SPEAKER_01:I am too good at that.
SPEAKER_03:Oh.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that would be a uh a super power or uh a super evil power because I I don't know if it's um I'm not sure it's a good thing at all times. Yeah. Um, in fact, have have done some therapy to uh to work on that filter because I think that what I've realized is like I have an initial filter when people say things and then it's like that filter runs through another filter. Okay, it's like a a wall, you know, one of those water systems that run through like, hey, we our water goes through 41 different uh filters so that it's perfectly clean. I sometimes I feel like I have 41 different filters, and then it's like I have to selectively choose like what comes out. And so um reacting organically and figuring out like what I actually think or what actually is a true reaction for me is is tough because I think I'm constantly I'm so good at like having that reaction based on my environment to make sure that it's safe and it fits with like the person that I'm with to to not to be at peace, to not be at conflict, that then it it's like, is that being true to myself or is that just a reflection of my environment and who I'm with?
SPEAKER_03:Oh yeah, like um perhaps reacting on behalf of somebody else.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Absolutely. And I think we're we're kind of coming to that like merging, I think, aspect of a nine, which was another one in the um in the row back to you that really struck true with I'm like, oh yes, I do this all the time. I remember as a kid, I would do like impressions of people, and uh baseball was my favorite sport as a young kid, and I would imitate people's batting stances. Oh wow. And so, you know, I think it's interesting of just like, yeah, I I maybe even began that at an early age of just like merging and taking on characteristics of others.
SPEAKER_03:Um That's very sweet.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes. But I yeah, I do think that the merging aspect is um definitely core to the nine. Um I think other types do it to a different extent, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so with the nines and in with merging, um it's important just to remind everybody that all nines are not the same and they don't all look alike. So um Timmy is you know focusing on some of those core things, but then of course it's uh every single nine is not going to relate to everything Timmy says. But let's talk about the merging. So this merging is is a key feature of all nines, but it can look different in different ways. So sometimes nines will like merge with their person, like with their one other person. The nine will kind of put their own identity to the side and kind of merge and take on their partner's identity. This could also happen with a group. There are nines who um find a group that they feel provides them a really strong sense of belonging, and then they merge with that group and just become like whatever the group needs, whatever the group wants, maybe take on like the opinions and the values of the group. Um, and then sometimes nines can even merge with their environment. So there are some nines that um can just feel so uh comfortable um with routine and even their physical home environment. It's almost as if they kind of melt into their routines and their environments. So, so it's interesting, you know, if you're a nine listening, kind of think about like what way does merging come out for you.
SPEAKER_01:I love that. Yeah. I think there's I I see myself, as you mentioned, the the individual, the group, or with an environment. I've seen myself do that in in all different ways. So I I think it's very relevant. And based on uh your time period in life, I've I've seen myself do it, you know, throughout high school, college, or being uh younger and now being you know into adulthood.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so I I was thinking as you were talking, this is gonna be a personal note, um, because Timmy and I are are friends in real life, IRL as they say. And you were talking about how you uh there's there's not big reactions very often. I'm kind of paraphrasing, but um I have very rarely heard you um like argue or get upset or you don't even like um you don't like talk about people behind their backs. Like that's a really um respectable thing about you. Okay, you're you're kind, you don't complain very much. And let me tell you guys, as soon as I uh joined up a sports team with Timmy, I heard him uh let's say arguing and being aggressive and assertive more than the whole time I've known him outside of that. So it's fun to see on the soccer field where I don't know what's what exactly is happening there, but you there's a obviously a comfort with letting it go to sport.
SPEAKER_01:It's yeah, is uh I appreciate you saying that because I I think that there's like an alter ego with some Enneagram nines. I don't know, I don't have a ton of nines that I actually know, honestly. But I think for me, sports, like being uh an athlete growing up, like sports always felt like this safe, manufactured environment where I could like healthily express my anger. Yeah. Because that's never like in normal life, that's very challenging for me. But then in sports, it's like, oh, like I can I can do that and um almost like need to do it. Um kind of feels contained. Yeah, for sure. And so like leaning into that, um I have uh you're not the first person that's been like, oh, I see a bit of a different side to you I've I haven't seen before. And so that uh that's kind of that's kind of fun.
SPEAKER_03:Uh for example, literally last week, uh Timmy had a foul called on him, bit of a terrible call. And uh just to see Timmy walk up and very uh boldly arguing with the referee. It was a pleasant experience to watch. I'll just say that.
SPEAKER_01:Uh my claim to fame in uh college soccer is I I scored in my first game, first shot, and uh the first few minutes that I was in, and then the next game I got two yellow cards and got a red card and was sent off.
SPEAKER_03:So You got two yellow cards?
SPEAKER_01:Two, yes. So For what? Uh uh uh just for two fouls, two hard fouls. So uh maybe there was some some anger uh in the shot and anger in the fouls. So it's amazing. Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Uh okay, we're gonna hop back to this core fear and talk a little bit more about that. So Ennegram 9 core fear, it's the being in conflict or tension and losing connection with others. So I talked at the beginning about how I I think um being in conflict or tension, that as a fear is like more deeply rooted in the losing connection with others. Um but what's your take on that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think that and I and I I think I at the very beginning I I said as such, but um said as much, but I believe that when it comes to conflict, there's just this hyper-awareness. And so like things that aren't even conflictual um go into my filter, and I'm just like, this is this is tense, I don't like this. And so I do think there's like a clever avoidance, even if it's not leaving the room, it's leaving uh leaving the tension. And I felt that before where it's like, whether it's a work meeting, whether it's conversation with my wife or a family member, and there's or even a group of people where there's conflict or tension, it's like I feel myself leaving and almost a little bit of disassociation because I'm like, it's just I don't like it. It's too hard. And for me, it can be in my relation to the conflict, like, okay, like uh I don't want to speak out against this or I don't want to enter into it, but sometimes it is just the conflict itself of just like two people being in tension and that almost being so overwhelming or unbearable that it's just like, ah, I just can't, I can't enter into this.
SPEAKER_03:Is it like more about your proximity to the conflict, or is it about conflict existing between people you care about, period? Like if you weren't there and you heard about it later, would it affect you the same?
SPEAKER_01:That's a good question. I think it's I think it's a bit of both. I do think that there's, you know, if I see two drivers give each other the middle finger, I I'm okay with that. I'm not gonna be like, oh my gosh, they're you know, they had conflict. That is so upsetting. Yeah, I think yeah. I so I do think there's um there's a sense, and then uh take a different step. Like if it is me and the other driver, um it it's gonna affect me, but I think I'm a little bit more okay with that. So I do think, but uh if you and I, Elise, are in the in those cars and have the conflict, that would be devastating for me, right? And so I do think, like talking through those hypothetical car situations, I think that there's something about the proximity and relationship to me, where it's just like the conflict is deeply upsetting. And if there's less proximity, if it's you know, between myself and a stranger, two strangers, it's like I I can do that. Um, but I do think it gets down to that core fear of disconnection where it's just like the relationship, the separation. For me, for whatever reason that is, that can be deeply upsetting. Or the fact of like, hey, once we get to the point where there's that disconnection or argument, like what if what if we can't? Can't get it back? Like, what if we aren't able to fix it? And in addition to that, like, because I'm not used to navigating those choppy waters of conflict, then I'm just like, well, this is I'm really uh out to sea now. Like, I don't know how to make this better because I'm used to not even going there.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, the part about um looking forward and saying, like, oh no, what if like what if this never gets resolved? That yeah, that feels um like that feels really tough. Like if you're um thinking about how this is gonna affect not only right now, but the future relationships.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I think for me, like viewing conflict as a muscle that you're working out was helpful for me. Um I think you can do that with emotions as well. But for me, like I, you know, in a relationship with a significant other, you ha you have to do that. You have to have conflict. Um, right, you're dealing with another person and especially when it comes to doing all aspects of life with them. So if you're gonna pretend like it's not there, that's that's not gonna work. And so for me, just getting the reps in and having a safe person and a safe place to express that conflict with, I think for me was a a game changer and being like, hey, it's never, it's never gonna feel great, but I'm I can do it. And I just did it, and then that's where it's like, okay, we can build momentum towards actually entering into conflict in a productive way.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and then you know, the bodily experience of going through conflict and then the relationships still existing afterwards that has to matter, right? To you being more comfortable with that. Like, okay, I don't need to fear so much about what if we can't fix this, because I've entered into conflict and come to resolutions in the past.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. And I think it goes against the worst case scenario or fear where like, oh my gosh, like what if this this ends our relationship, or what if this happens, and then you go through it and things are okay, and you still love each other, and you're like, oh, okay, the world didn't end, we got through it, and then it provides confirmation for the next time. You're like, you can you're able to look back and think we survived, we can we can move forward and and do this again.
SPEAKER_03:Well said. Well, Timmy, it is time to talk about the gut triad. I would love for you to teach us a little bit from your experience. What's it like as a nine sitting in a gut triad? Um, what does that look like for decision making?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, first off, I just I remember thinking like when I first heard about the triads, you know, like the heart, head, and then the gut. Just always made me laugh of just like the gut. Like what do you mean? I think I heard it the as the third one, is like heart. Yeah, it makes sense. Head and then your gut. Okay, what's what does that mean? Um but yeah, I think that I think for me it was interesting because I am pretty unaware of my body in some ways. And I know um feel feel free to step in and correct me if I'm wrong here. But with nines, they like sit atop in in in the middle of that like gut triad. So there's a lot of like self-forgetfulness um and gut instincts, but oftentimes like there's also this unawareness of being like, uh, I'm like I'm not aware of my own desires or own body. And so I think for me, like holding down, tamping down of anger was a big one. Yeah. Um I know that probably get to this with eights and and ones, but like with eights, there's just um an ability to express that.
SPEAKER_03:And then with quick expression of anger, quick and quick and honest.
SPEAKER_01:No, for sure. And then ones, uh it's a little bit more passive aggressive um and kind of seeps through.
SPEAKER_03:Ones are like tr they're like trying to repress it, but not succeeding that well. So it kind of comes out sideways.
SPEAKER_01:Uh-huh. And then nines, it's just just you know, it's not there. It's it's there, but I I wanna I want to pretend it's not there. And you're actually repressing it pretty well. Yes. And so um for me, um it's funny to look back and and reflect on like as a as a kid, um I had a a temper when it came to sports. And so um my brothers can allude to like we didn't have a lot of conflict as as uh siblings, but uh there was on a few occasions that I chased them up the stairs with hockey sticks or uh basement sport tool, you know, some kind of thing. And I don't know. Are you the youngest brother? I was the youngest brother, and uh so I uh you know had to keep up as the youngest does. And so when we played sports, you know, if I didn't come out on top, it was uh it was tough. Who am I if I can't win at sports? Yeah. So I yeah, I think that um I did experience these kind of outbursts of anger, and I know I've heard some people describe the nine's anger coming out in these like kind of almost childlike uh hilarious outbursts. Yeah. And I think it is because it's just like it's such an unused muscle or unexpressed that it it can come out almost clumsily and unfiltered in that way. And I definitely I identify with that.
SPEAKER_03:That is that is very well said. Um another way that some people describe the Nigram Nines relationship with anger is you know, the nine can spend months and months and months repressing anger, letting things go, being unbothered. Um, and then maybe like once a year there's a one big explosion of anger, and it's like everything that's been building up and repressed and repressed gets released at once. Um and then uh so for the gut triad, um eights, nines, and ones, they're part of being in the gut triad is about having strong gut instincts about things, or as you say, sometimes for the nines, it's about um being self-forgetting about those instincts, which is a little inverted from the eight and the one. Um, but also a big piece of this is about what's right, um, what's good, what's just, what's fair. This is a a pretty strong thing that eights, nines, and ones have in common is this orientation towards uh uh justice. And and when we get to the nines, that orientation to justice kind of manifests more as an inclusiveness and a desire to make sure that all people feel respected and heard, and a lot of that is coming from your ability to see things from all perspectives. Um so yeah, I think uh what I'm trying to bring it back to in the gut is there's some there's something in in your gut as a nine that's like in order to like treat people justly and right, we have to listen to them and try to see their point of view and then try to bring about um some sense of collaboration or or harmony amongst the group.
SPEAKER_01:That's that's yeah, that's really important to me. In fact, uh I think when when I've been asked what my pet peeve is, I think typically it is arrogance or people that are gonna talk over or or like dominate a group to where it's like all voices aren't heard. And that bothers me, I think, because of what you're saying of just like everyone has value, everyone should be heard, each person should get a say in in what's going on, and um there's value in in each person. And so I think like if I sense that someone is undermining that, uh that's that can be upsetting for for me for sure.
SPEAKER_03:Um I know that you've uh on your Enneagram journey, you have become a lot more familiar with what it looks like to uh to notice and be aware of your gut instincts, especially in decision making. So can you just share a little bit about that? Like what is it like to to um be intentional with uh acknowledging your gut when you make decisions?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think that decisions are challenging for me. And my wife uh will say sometimes my favorite phrase is I don't know. Just like it's just like the the filler phrase for for when I'm about to say something. Yes, yes. And so uh yeah. And then whether it's her saying this or or me, it's like, well, what would it be like if I if I did know? And sometimes just guessing, because sometimes I really don't know. And it's just like, okay, I'm gonna have to sit in this and figure it out. But other times I do know, and it's either just, you know, uh kind of a a natural response to be like, well, I'm just unsure, I don't know. Um, or it's I don't know because I'm not sure how that's gonna land. You know, does that fit with this group of people, what they want? Does it fit with who I'm with um in terms of what they're gonna be pleased with or what they're gonna go along with? And so for me, I think I've just had to try to lean into that assertiveness of um almost even guessing of just like, hey, let's let's try this on for size. And that doesn't have to be where this lands, but um let's at least try to point the needle in this direction or um sit in this. I think schedules and timelines are also important. So for me, like if I don't have a timeline or end date, I can sit in uncertainty forever. Like and for me, it's not really gonna bother me. In fact, sometimes I feel energized by just being in this continual, it it like bothers me at my core, but also just like not deciding can feel really nice because there's a certainty in that decision. And uh some decisions feel like there's a sense of, you know, finality where it's just like, oh, this this once this is done, it can never be undone.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And what if somebody might be upset?
SPEAKER_01:Someone might be upset, or what if I regret that decision? And so um for me, being like, hey, this uh this needs to be done by this point, or um, this part of that needs to be done, and it's one step in the process. So I think that that is is helpful. I think one final aspect that also is good is like there's no um sometimes I think in life we rank decisions on how important they are versus how meaningful they are. So it's like going to lunch, you know, are you gonna go to Chipotle or Chick-fil-A? And it's like, uh, are you gonna marry this person? Are you gonna uh have a child, you know? And so I think that in some sense on a service level, it's like, yeah, there's different weight in those decisions, but also in some sense, it's like all decisions are equal in the sense of like I don't know, everything is like a a a little bit of a decision, and there's not necessarily um there's not necessarily this just like hierarchy of decisions. And I think that for me that's been a challenging thought.
SPEAKER_03:Uh do you ever give yourself do you ever give yourself deadlines for personal decisions?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. That's Does that work? Um I think only if there's like a measuring stick or someone else along to to kind of be the accountability in that decision. I think for me, um, you know, with like keeping a budget, you know, like making sure uh that there's like a trigger point for like, hey, Sunday is budget day, or like by this date, uh, we need to do that. Sure. Um and it it really is helpful to have someone that is going to like check my work, so to speak. Because otherwise, for me, it's like um the yeah, deadlines can be pushed back. And so it's helpful if there's some level of involvement with other people or some kind of outside force uh to give me a push on that one.
SPEAKER_03:Um I'm gonna jump a little bit backwards and I will be going on a tangent now. Um, you have just been talking about how uh sometimes when you are making decisions or taking action, you do kind of like a scan of all the people involved and kind of think through how's it gonna affect them or are are people gonna be okay with this, or does this work? And this is, I think, a good example of how different Ennegram numbers can present the same behavior, but it's coming from different motivations. Because your wife, who's an Ennegram 2, actually would probably do things the same way. She thinks about other people when she makes decisions. She considers other people's needs and feelings. Um, but then there's a difference by what's motivating you. Like uh an Enigram 2 will be motivated by um that need to uh take care of other people and to be like to be seen as a person who knows what other people need. So there's like a very relational aspect to it. And then with the nine, how you described, it's kind of more about like keeping the harmony amongst people and also like your own, your own sense of like peace or anxiety. And so I think that's uh it's good to keep in mind that we're getting under the surface of how we behave.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Absolutely. I think I I think it was Suzanne Stabile, who I know her and Ian Kron have done a lot together. It was either a uh one of her books or a podcast she mentioned, because I I believe that she's a two and maybe has an Enneagram 9 husband.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's correct.
SPEAKER_01:Um, which is my situation. Um and I I she mentioned a story where they're on a plane and someone's struggling with like a suitcase right in front of her husband, and the husband is just sitting, sitting there not doing anything. And Suzanne's looking at him being like, Well, what do you what are you doing? Why are you not helping this person in need? And you know, the Aneagrim9 husband is kind of like, Well, I'm just doing me. You know, it's nothing to do with me. I'm not gonna make a fuss about helping this other person and kind of like cause a scene. And I think that for me is just a a funny perspective of just like these situations, how we think differently about them.
SPEAKER_03:I think in in that story too, if I'm remembering it right, there was it was a person who didn't speak English and was speaking Spanish, and they were like not able to communicate with the flight attendant. And Suzanne's husband, nine, spoke Spanish. So she was seeing this and she's like, duh, you speak Spanish. You can help translate, you can help figure this out and fix the suitcase situation. And for Suzanne, the two, she was like, My my dream is like to be able to jump in and help resolve, but like I don't have the skills, but but you could, and but that's just not how you're you're thinking about it.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I think nine uh can can uh go to that observer of just like I'm just observing this situation and I'm uh a fly on the wall and not not an active part of it.
SPEAKER_03:Um we are gonna uh hop to the next topic, but just for kicks, um this is a little experiment that I just thought of off the top of my head. How many minutes do you think we've been talking?
SPEAKER_00:45.
SPEAKER_03:That's really good, actually. 48.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:I uh when I've been having this sense lately doing these interviews, like time is just time just kind of warps and it feels like it's flying, but but standing still at the same time, you know, no no uh in the this uh studio boxers uh time does not exist. In the soundproof room. So relationships, what are some of your top values and relationships? And then how do you think those values connect with your Enneagram type nine?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. I think as I look at current relationships, as I look back at past relationships too, um I've I've tended to be attracted towards people that um can speak their mind a little bit more. And I think for me, I think of it in the sense of um, you know, like a tennis or pickleball or ping pong, you know, whatever uh whatever racket sport or that kind of thing, where it's just like um, you know, for me, I think I do well uh kind of reflecting or kind of blocking back uh in a relationship and taking a little bit more of someone's energy that that brings a lot of of things to the table. And I wouldn't say that's like true of all the relationships, but I think just being a nine, you just you're you're inherently good at um meeting people where they're at and kind of hopefully reflecting back some of their best qualities and and bringing some of your own as well. But I think for me, I just think about uh people that were either going through things or just had kind of unique personalities that uh maybe felt drawn to me and me feeling drawn to them. So I think that would be one thing that would be true in relationships. I would also say um I would also just say um feeling comfortable around someone. So I think I think just making sure that they value people and that they value myself and that there's an ability to like come together and be like, hey, we're gonna we're gonna value each other's worth as as people. I think that for me is is an important one too.
SPEAKER_03:What does it take for you to not feel comfortable around somebody in that way?
SPEAKER_01:Um I think that I think oftentimes maybe just like a closed-mindedness or just like a um a lack of openness to like perspectives, I think. And so I think if someone is just like really predetermined that like, hey, this is the way it is, and there's there's like no arguing with that or like no like, you know, no take backs. This is just like the way I see the world. I think for me that that's where that's where I think I can lean into a little bit of like an eight to be like, oh really? Like there's no other perspectives that you know could be a part of this. And so I think I've I've seen myself on occasion, not often, but on rare occasions, kind of leaning into maybe that challenger wing to bring in like those perspectives. Because I think for me that's enough of a value to be like, there's others ways to see the world, or there's like important things maybe that you're not uh considering.
SPEAKER_03:Um you'll fight for that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_03:Nice. That was a good one. Um any other values you wanna mention?
SPEAKER_01:I I think we c I think we covered them. Yeah. Nice.
SPEAKER_03:So now, from all corners of the internet, I have collected some nicknames. Nicknames that the people like to use to describe the Enneagram Nine. I'm gonna read them and then you're gonna tell me what you think about them. Nicknames for Ennegram 9. Uh the peacekeeper, the peacemaker, the peaceful person, the mediator, the accommodator.
SPEAKER_01:Oof. Those are those are good. Um I would say you want me to choose my favorite?
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Let's see. I think I'm trying to think of what feels most true. I think the the I'm center, I'm I'm I'm feeling like I'm starting out on what's not my favorite. I think the I think the mediator can be tough because with nines, I I think you just have to be, I think you have to be like uh very experienced um in conflict and maybe like a little bit further along in life to to be like a true mediator. Because it's just like conflict is so uncomfortable that I think nines can be good mediators, but it's also like, ooh, let's think of like mediating an actual conflict. You know, like if you were to bring in a couple people and they're just like going at it, I'm just like, ooh, that that takes a lot to uh to actually step into that. Um so I I like I like when that one feels true about myself, but sometimes it is sometimes it doesn't. Um I do like peacemaker. Um I think the peaceful person is nice because it's just like this is just uh I am I am peace.
SPEAKER_03:I hadn't heard of that one, but I was googling like nicknames for Enneagram Night. That came up somewhere. The peaceful person. I thought that was nice.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. The accommodator is feels maybe most accurate with just the nine tendency to just like accommodate and go along with the flow of life or the flow of others. And so I think in that way, like as you look at Enneagram names, some maybe ring a little bit more positive, some ring ring a little bit more negative. That one I think just rings maybe slightly on just like the shadow or dark side of the number of just being like accommodating, sometimes has a bit of like a negative uh connotation to it. But I also think it's very fair with like nines where it's just like peacemaker, a mediator, like those are so positive. Everyone's like, I would love to be uh a peacemaker. I would love to be a mediator, but I like that you included accommodator because that feels uh that feels fair. And I think like maybe the maybe the peacemaker accommodator, like we we gotta figure out a way to blend all these together. Uh make a make a new title.
SPEAKER_03:That's good. That was a good uh rundown of uh all of the nicknames.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I guess I did I did what uh a classic nine would do, and I didn't really give you an answer. I just I just gave you a summary of all the options.
SPEAKER_03:You can see you can see all of them. You can see all perspectives.
SPEAKER_01:All values of these names.
SPEAKER_03:So um, of course, we have the list at the end of the episode of what it's like to be a nine. We've done this. We did this at the beginning of the episode. We flip-flopped it. Um I I am just gonna read a couple more uh so we can end with this. Again, this is from the book, The Road Back to You by Ian Morgan Cron. Here's a couple more items of what it's like to be a nine. Sometimes I get lost in doing trivial tasks while things that really need to get done get put off. I'm happy to go along with what others want to do. People seem to want me to be more decisive. I often choose the path of least resistance. I find routines at work and home comforting, and I feel unsettled when something throws them off. Uh I have a hard time getting started, but once I do, I really can get things done. Uh people think I'm a good listener, even though I can find it hard to pay attention in a long conversation. Okay, so there's a few more. Are there any any last ones that you want to talk about?
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. I mean, I think this is just more a thought I was having earlier that uh was that didn't get a chance to to kind of speak out that that made sense. But you know, I think when it comes to um kind of going back to like the emotions or just the the anger or some of the the things that feel more negative, I think for me, one thing that has helped me is just being like, hey, emotions don't come in negatives and positives. Like they just exist. And I think for me, some of my work as anneagram9 has just been to be like, hey, um, this positive emotion, uh that can be good, but also it's just it is what it is. And um there's a time and a place for that, but there's also a time and a place for the anger or the sadness or this other emotion um that might need really need a place in in what's going on in life. And so I think for me, like that's been some of my work as as Enneagram nine to to think about and something that may not necessarily be on the list there, but I I think it definitely kind of relates to to several of them as well.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's really great about emotions. Um I I'm remembering that in the episode that we recorded with you and Ariel, I I do believe it's actually episode number one um of this podcast, but we talked a lot about the emotional differences with two and nine and processing emotions. So if what Timmy just said at the end piqued your interest, go back and listen to episode number one because he talks a lot more about that. Um, this has been awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your time and your life experience um and for uh I just being um transparent and honest about uh all the things.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. I love uh getting to be able to come come on again and be uh a two-time uh podcast guest. It's it's a pleasure. I love it.
SPEAKER_03:Two and counting.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes. So uh we'll have to do that, do it again, come back for for a third time some at some point.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, we might do uh like a uh HR slash work related all about Enneagram types in the workplace. Let's do it. I still want to do that.
SPEAKER_01:I love it.
SPEAKER_03:Um anything else that uh you're burning to tell us about nines?
SPEAKER_01:I don't think so. Uh love love the podcasts. I was uh checking out the episodes on the way here. So uh everyone go go listen to the the other episodes. Like and subscribe. Five stars. All the things.
SPEAKER_03:All right, we're done. Over and out.
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